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Clarinet Roadshow => Make and Model lists and research => Topic started by: Windsong on April 25, 2017, 06:32:58 PM

Title: Harry Pedler & Co./The Pedler Co. Thread
Post by: Windsong on April 25, 2017, 06:32:58 PM
Welcome to  The Official Clarinet Pages Harry Pedler Thread.

Here you will find what will hopefully become the most comprehensive collection of Serial Number data on the Harry Pedler marque in cyberspace, as well as historical insight into the marvelous, mysterious maker who excelled as a pioneer and innovator--Mr. Harry Walter Pedler, himself.  Many very thoughtful and motivated people are to thank for the information thus far accumulated, and herein documented.

I offer my most sincere appreciation to Phil Pedler for making all of this possible in the first place, and for his tireless dedication to the preservation of clarinet history in its many forms across a multitude of spectrums, our own Silversorcerer for initially getting me interested in Pedler clarinets, his insistance that I start a HP thread, and his vast initial contribution of serial number data that enabled me to cobble together a noteworthy and legitimate list "out of the gate", Dean McMakin for his phenominal collection of Elkhart data and tremendous, personal dedication to the incredible Indiana musical instrument industry at large, and our own Rocket350 for his insight, personal notes on Harry Pedler serial numbers and model designations, photographic contributions of warranty cards, and assistance in finding legitimate sources of information on the internet, scanned from the original sources dating from the beginning of the last century.  I thank those, too, who selflessly went to the trouble to make such information available to us.  AND I thank all of you who have engaged this thread with your insights and contributions.  There will no doubt be a good many more who offer future contibutions for which we will be forever thankful.


Please keep in mind that this thread is a work in progress, and while fact, or presumed "fact" will be stated as fact, there will be many instances where factual data is not, or "not yet" available, and it will be stated as such.  As it is, there shall be many amendments to original posts, going forward.  It is my hope that we can develop a timeline with an accumulation of serial numbers, random bits of data, advertisements and with good fortune, a sales receipt or two.   I appreciate EVERY contribution of information, as this list will serve all who seek information on this topic.  I will accept folklore, readily, and present it as such, until such information can be confirmed as fact, maintained as folklore, or easily disputed.  The way we grow and learn is through the sharing of information, so I invite each knowledgeable reader to share what (s)he knows, or thinks (s)he knows.  Understand that we are "writing history" right now, presumably based upon honest representation and careful calculation of all we glean.  It is our inherent responsibility to be as accurate as available information will allow.  This is exciting and dangerous territory.  Readers beware:
 
What we think we know for certain:
Born 21 January, 1872 in London, Harry Walter Pedler Sr. was "cherry-picked" from his native England by William J. Gronert (AKA: "Tommy Atkins", born 30 December, 1851 in Hastings, England) --a fellow Englishman, and associate of Charles Gerard Conn in July of 1905, at which point he was already considered a master clarinet craftsman, having been taught the trade by his tenure with Rudall, Carte and Co., LTD from the age of 13 (1885) first as an apprentice.  At the age of 28 (1900), he reportedly left Rudall, Carte and Co., LTD, and began his own clarinet manufacturing business under his own name, until being ushered to the United States by Gronert with his wife, Louisa Hughes Pedler, and 5 year old son, Harry Junior.  Pedler worked for and with Conn until 1914, when, yearning for home, he left Conn's employ.  Bags in hand, his return to London was abruptly hampered by the outbreak of WWI, and was unable make the voyage.  Whether or not he ever returned to England is unknown.  In 1916, Harry Pedler and William J. Gronert founded the American Manufacturing Company.  It is interesting to note that Gronert worked for Conn until 1911, and "then organized the Elkhart Musical Instrument Company which merged with the Martin Band Instrument Company, of which he was the secretary and general manager at the time of his death". (Taken from his obituary posted in The Elkhart Truth, 26 July 1919).  This information raises more questions (and eyebrows) than it answers, as it would imply he worked concurrently with Pedler and the MBIC.  Any contract that may still exist, written up between any of the aforementioned fellows during their tenure with one another, would perhaps tell us about the hierarchical culture that existed at the time.

Upon Gronert's death on 25 July, 1919, Harry Pedler re-branded the company (see: Presto; February 12, 1920, for announcement) under his own name, and in March of 1930, Harry Pedler sold his company to The Martin Band Instrument Company (MBIC), but continued on in senior management capacities, and oversaw the perpetuation of his legacy until his departure, reportedly in April of 1931, (Thanks to 350 Rocket, we have an account from an April 1931 edition of Music Trade Review, confirming Harry Pedler Sr's and Jr's resignation from MBIC.  The same article also mentions Harry Pedler founding his business in 1914, which is an oversimplified interpretation of actual events) when he and his son, reportedly displeased with the direction of production under MBIC left the company abruptly and ultimately went to work with Ferdinand August "Gus" Buescher (of saxophone fame at the time, though he also dabbled in clarinets) on 23 July, 1932, making brasswind instruments. 

By December of 1937 (and one account I have states 1936) MBIC-made Pedler clarinets would no longer be stamped, "Harry Pedler and Co.", and were instead ALL stamped "The Pedler Co."  when Harry Pedler changed the name of his joint venture with Buescher from Art Musical Instrument Company and re-branded the company "Harry Pedler and Sons", directly after Gus Buescher's death on 29 November, 1937.  This is significant, because there was a 6+ year window after Harry Pedler's departure from MBIC, where his name DID, INDEED adorn production clarinets in its original form, without his own influence.  I consider this April 1931-December 1937 window of time "transitional". 

To complicate matters, some true Harry Pedler clarinets made prior to April 1930 were also stamped "The Pedler" and other similar variants, but to re-iterate,  no clarinets after December 1937 were authorised to be stamped "Harry Pedler and Co.", as Harry Pedler had re-secured rights to his name by this point.

Thus far, evidence showing that any true Harry Pedler clarinets (1919-1930) were adorned with a serial number is scarce, and a good many clarinets were not even engraved at all--even with his name, sometimes, during the earliest years.  The standing exception is that BBb models may have been serialized early in their production, and 350 Rocket makes mention of serialization starting in 1928 with the Premiere model, and noting that all metal Pedler clarinets have perhaps always been serialized.  I now have in my possession what most clearly appears to be a post-1923/pre-1931 Albert System top joint, Model 1544, myself, which bears a serial number.  Until further evidence surfaces, however, it is a cautious measure to operate under the calculated assumption that the serial number process officially began when Martin Band Instrument Company took the reins in March of 1930, but I look forward to disproving this, if such factual data is made available.

Several different materials were used in the construction of both Harry Pedler and The Pedler Co. Clarinets:  Rosewood, Grenadilla wood, Hard Rubber (Ebonite), "Gren-O-Lite", and Silver-plated brass.  It has been reported that the early heavy guage metal clarinets were not manufactured of silver-plated brass.  Rather, they were constructed entirely out of solid nickel-silver.  I cannot substantiate this claim, but I would appreciate the insights of those who may know and/or own such instruments. The professional model, heavy guage, single walled metal clarinets have been recorded at 914 grams (see reference, this site).  It has been said that Harry Pedler preferred Hard Rubber, and made clarinets in metal or wood upon request or demand.

At the height of production, Harry Pedler expanded his business to keep up with the demand for his clarinets.  It has been (incorrectly, I believe) reported that he could manufacture over 500 clarinets per day (The music Trade Review, June 23, 1923) and then reported 6 months later that he could manufacture 600 clarinets per month (The Music Trade Review, December 29, 1923).  The manufacture of 7200 clarinets, per year--Pre-Martin, is a lofty, but plausible expectation from a medium-sized shop of 10,000 square feet and 70 workers (Presto-Times, March 1930), whereas the projected manufacture of 180,000 clarinets per year is most certainly not. 

In 1937, upon MBIC relinquishing the rights to the Harry Pedler brand,  the name "Harry Pedler" would never adorn another woodwind; only brasswinds.  While a good many of the MBIC clarinets produced after April 1931 were designed and intended primarily for the student market, high-end professional models were also made.   Harry Walter Pedler Sr.'s legacy primarily resides in his own, fantastic self-branded clarinets made prior to 1931, and the truly exceptional, laboriously hand finished, carefully and cleverly executed professional level clarinets manufactured by MBIC that were simply a more refined, direct extension of Harry Pedler's original designs. 

Harry Walter Pedler Sr. died 25 September, 1950, in Elkhart, Indiana.  At the time of his death, His son, Harry Walter Pedler Jr. took over as chief of their brasswind venture, and ultimately sold the business to Selmer in 1958.

Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on April 25, 2017, 06:44:02 PM
HARRY PEDLER/THE PEDLER, CO. SERIAL NUMBER LIST:

* All clarinets, unless listed otherwise are Bb Sopranos in the BOEHM SYSTEM.  While Harry Pedler made clarinets in the keys of A, C, and Eb, I have only ever seen one Eb in metal.  I have in my possession, literature published by Harry Pedler from 1924 verifying their existence, however.

** All clarinets listed are deemed or known to be Low Pitch (A=440Hz).  I have never seen a HP Harry Pedler, and firmly believe none exist.  I have come across no literature stating any were ever made—even in the Albert system.

*** All clarinets listed were made between 1919-1956.  When specifics on dates are made available, especially as they relate to prefix model range, they will be posted.

****  I have personally examined a good many of the clarinets on this list, either from handling the clarinets personally or careful scrutiny of photographs from internet auctions, and conversing with owners and sellers in cyberspace whom I will likely never actually meet.  Quite literally, thousands of hours have been spent in the culmination of data (including the time of generous others who have selflessly contributed to this project for purpose of historical preservation of often fleeting information) recording and examining clarinets to ensure accuracy, but no claims are made to 100% accuracy.  If you know of reported data that is incorrect or seems incorrect, please make it known, and it will be investigated/corrected.  If you own (or come to own) any clarinets listed, and can provide further details of any kind, I'd be most obliged.




HARRY PEDLER CLARINETS, SANS SERIAL NUMBER

No S/N...Hard Rubber..."Harry Pedler & Co." In oval with lyre crown...17/6 Boehm with "Pedler Appliance" ( no crow's foot)..."A" hand scribed key batch marks under LH pinky keys.

No S/N...Grenadilla wood..."Harry Pedler & Co." In oval with lyre crown...17/6 Boehm with "Pedler Appliance"

No S/N...ALBERT SYSTEM SOPRANO...Model 152 (2-ring, non-roller pinky keys)...Hard Rubber..."Harry Pedler & Co." in diamond logo (stamped on mouthpiece, barrel and bell)...50/50 case...over/under thumbrest screws..."wrap-around" register key. ("KESSELMAN-O'DRISCOLL Co. MILWAUKEE, WISC. DISTRIBUTORS" stamped on bell underneath diamond logo).

No S/N...ALBERT SYSTEM SOPRANO...Model 1544 (4-ring, roller pinky keys)...Hard Rubber..."Harry Pedler & Co." in diamond logo (stamped on mouthpiece, barrel and bell)...over/under thumbrest screws.

No S/N...Hard Rubber..."Harry Pedler & Co." in oval with lyre crown...50/50 case...18/7 ( Augmented model 177?)...over/under thumbrest pinning..."Pedler Appliance" (i.e. no crow's foot)..."D" stamped key batch marks under LH pinky keys...G#/A adjustment screw.

No S/N...Bass Clarinet, Model 201A...Rosewood..."Harry Pedler & Co."..."USQMC" (United States [ARMY] Quartermaster Corps)...(see photos, this thread)

No S/N...Bass Clarinet, Model 201A...Rosewood..."Harry Pedler & Co."..."USQMC"...open ring at LH1.




NON-METAL CLARINETS, SANS PREFIX

1103...BASS CLARINET, Model 201A...Rosewood..."Harry Pedler & Co.".

1105...BASS CLARINET, Model 201A...Rosewood..."Harry Pedler & Co."...open ring at LH1...(possibly pre-1931)

1126...BASS CLARINET, Model 201A...Rosewood..."Harry Pedler & Co."...complete plateau upper joint...(likely pre-1931)

3762...Hard Rubber...top joint only...Model 1544 (15 key, 4 ring) ALBERT SYSTEM SOPRANO

14911...Grenadilla Wood..."The Pedler Co." In oval w/ lyre crown...top joint only (split through register key)...cannibalized for a few keys...RIP (ODD, but in personally examining the on-line photo, I see no prefix)




P-SERIES

P2910...Grenadilla wood..."Pedler Special" (no oval)...Geib style “Pedler” branded case...18/7...over/under thumbrest screws...crow's foot.

P3397...Grenadilla wood..."Pedler Premier" (no oval)... knurled adjustable top barrel ring...Geib style tan case.

P4217...Grenadilla wood..."Premier By Pedler"...17/6...over/under thumbrest screws...crow's foot...Authentic, branded Geib case, also with Pedler tag.

P8706...unknown composition..."Premier By Pedler"...17/6...over/under thumbrest screws...crow's foot.

P9218...Wood..."Harry Pedler & Co. Premier"..18/7.

P10354...Wood..."The Pedler Co."...17/6.

P11153...Wood..."The Pedler Co."...17/6.

P11172...Wood..."The Pedler Co." in oval with lyre crown...17/6...crow's foot...over/under thumbrest screws...original Geib style case...individual upper joint trill key posts.

P11297...Wood..."The Pedler Co."...17/6

P11664...Wood..."The Pedler Co."...17/6...conventional "Pedler" branded case...crow's foot.

P11807...Wood..."The Pedler Co." in oval with lyre crown...17/6...crow's foot...twin under thumbrest screws...individual upper joint trill key posts.

P11825...Wood..."The Pedler Co."...17/6...hard rubber bell and barrel with "Harry Pedler and Co." logo in oval w/ lyre crown.

P12138...Wood..."The Pedler Co." in Oval with lyre crown...4 upper joint trill key posts...17/6...crow's foot...twin, "under-thumbrest" screws...silver plated keys...Pedler-branded Geib style case.

P13320...Wood..."The Pedler Co."...17/6

P13800...Wood...The Pedler Co." in oval with lyre crown and "Premier"...17/6...crow's foot...

P14718..."The Pedler Co"...4 upper joint trill key posts...17/6...Geib case.

P14776...wood..."The Pedler Co."...17/6...crow's foot...twin “under-thumbrest” screws.

P15778...Wood..."The Pedler Co."...17/6

P15168...Wood..."The Pedler Co." in oval with lyre crown...17/6...crow's foot...Pedler branded Geib style case...twin under-thumbrest screws.

P16116...Wood..."The Pedler Co." in oval with lyre crown...17/6...crow's foot...4 upper joint trill key posts...silver plated keys...S/N on UJ and LJ.

P16176...Wood..."The Pedler Co."...17/6.

P19356...Wood..."The Pedler Co." in oval w/ lyre crown...17/6...crow's foot...early 1940s Pedler-branded case...over/under thumbrest screws...S/N on UJ and LJ.

P19631...Wood..."The Pedler Co." in oval w/ lyre crown...early 1940s Pedler-branded case...17/6...crow's foot.

P19805...Wood..."The Pedler Co." in oval w/ lyre crown...unbranded, mid-to-late 1940s case (medium brown, rectangular w/ rounded corners)...twin under-thumbrest screws...4 trill posts...new "T-style" bridge key (post WWII)...S/N on UJ and LJ...crow's foot

P22229...Wood..."The Pedler Co." and "Pedler Pennant"...



E-SERIES

E1136...Guarantee Bond only...Hard Rubber...Professional Model...Signed by Sid Pedler.

E1352...Hard Rubber...17/6.

E1430...Hard Rubber...Hoosier model...17/6...With Guarantee Bond signed by Sid Pedler.

E3089...Hard Rubber..."American, The Pedler Co." (no oval)...Geib case w/o Pedler brand...S/N on LJ prominently, and faintly on TJ...factory lyre band on LJ socket ring...17/6...over/under thumbrest screws...crow's foot.

E3253...Hard Rubber..."Premier, The Pedler Co."...18/7.

E6781...Hard Rubber..."Pedler Hoosier, Elkhart, Indiana" (open logo)...17/6...Crow's foot...over/under thumbrest screws...shared throat trill posts...Pedler-branded flat, rectangular, snake-skin 50/50 case.

E13866...Hard Rubber..."The Pedler Co."...17/6.

E14613...Hard Rubber...Pedler Hoosier, Elkhart, Indiana" (open logo)...17/6...Crow's foot...over/under thumbrest screws...shared throat trill posts...Pedler-branded Geib case.

E15301...Hard Rubber..."Art Craft Symphony" bell engraving...17/6...crow's foot...unusual 50/50 case.

E15828...Hard Rubber..."The Pedler Co." in oval w/lyre crown...50/50 snakeskin case w/Pedler brand...17/6...S/N on UJ (and perhaps on LJ?).

E16298...Hard Rubber..."American, The Pedler Co." (no oval)...Geib style Selmer case...17/6...S/N on UJ and LJ...factory lyre band on LJ socket band...crow's foot.

E16299...Hard Rubber..."The Pedler Co." in oval w/lyre crown...50/50 case...17/6...factory lyre band on LJ socket ring...17/6...Single(!), under-thumbrest screw...crow's foot.

E16705...Hard Rubber..."The Pedler Co." in oval w/ lyre crown...17/6...no case...factory lyre band on LJ socket ring...crow's foot.

E17423...Hard Rubber..."The Pedler co." In oval w/lyre crown...17/6...original Geib style case...crow's foot...shared upper joint trill key posts...bell is grenadilla, and stamped "American".

E17772...Hard Rubber..."The Pedler Co." In oval w/ lyre crown...17/6...crow's foot...individual top joint trill key posts.

E19190...Hard Rubber..."The Pedler Co." in oval w/ lyre crown...Geib case w/o Pedler brand...S/N on UJ and LJ...18/7..twin under-thumbrest pins..."Pedler Appliance" (i.e. no crow's foot).

E19986...Hard Rubber..."The Pedler Co."...17/6.

E20675...Warranty card..."The Pedler Co."...Bb...Model 157...(date of 8/21/47 handwritten on top of card.  Penmanship is notably different on 2s and 7s, as is ink color.  Added after the fact for posterity, perhaps.) 

E21640...Hard Rubber..."The Pedler Co." in oval w/lyre crown...17/6.

E22104...Hard Rubber..."The Pedler Co." In oval w/lyre crown...17/6...Geib case, original ligature.

E22124...Hard Rubber..."The Pedler Co." in oval w/lyre crown...17/6...Geib case...4 upper joint trill key posts.

E24581...Hard Rubber..."The Pedler Co." In oval w/lyre crown...17/6...Geib style "Pedler" branded case...4 upper joint trill key posts...twin under-thumbrest screws.

E28067...Hard Rubber..."The Pedler Co." without oval logo...17/6...50/50 case with storage slot...4 upper joint trill key posts...correct single screw ligature and mouthpiece.

E30525...Hard Rubber...17/6...individual upper trill key posts...twin under-thumbrest screws...original Pedler case.

E30970...Hard Rubber..."The Pedler Co." in oval w/ lyre crown...17/6...Pedler-branded Geib style case.

E31115...Hard Rubber..."The Pedler Co" in oval with lyre crown...17/6...Pedler flat case...ringless bell.

E31699...Hard Rubber..."The Pedler Co"....17/6.

E32334...Hard Rubber..."The Pedler Co" in oval with lyre crown...17/6...crow's foot...Lyre holder socket ring...original, Pedler-branded, Geib style case in medium brown...thin plating on keys...original mouthpiece

E33152...Hard Rubber..."The Pedler Co"....17/6...bakelite bell?

E34363...BASS CLARINET...Hard Rubber..."The Pedler Co." in oval with lyre crown...S/N on UJ and LJ.

E36489...Hard Rubber..."The Pedler Co." in oval with lyre crown...17/6...twin, "under-thumbrest" screws...4 upper joint trill key posts...Pedler branded Geib style case in tweed (dark brown leatherette is standard, though they are found in tan and medium brown, too)...lyre holder socket ring.

E37071...Hard Rubber..."The Pedler Co."...conventional "Pedler" branded case...17/6...crow's foot.

E38008...Hard Rubber..."The Pedler Co." in oval w/ lyre crown...17/6...twin, under-thumbrest screws...4 upper joint trill key posts...crow's foot.

E38475...Hard Rubber..."The Pedler Co." in oval w/ lyre crown...17/6...twin, under-thumbrest screws...4 upper joint trill key posts...crow's foot.




T SERIES

T6178...Wood..."Trophy" in script on top front of upper joint, "Pedler" above a trophy cup and "Elkhart Indiana" below it, engraved on barrel...17/6...crow's foot.

T6510...Wood..."Trophy" in script on top front of upper joint, "Pedler" above a trophy cup and "Elkhart Indiana" below it, engraved on bell...17/6...crow's foot...Pedler branded case.




N-SERIES

N24803..."The Pedler Co."...17/6 (UNICORN of the bunch.  Mis-recorded, or rarest of the Pedler breed?)




W-SERIES:

W267...Grenadilla wood..."Harry Pedler & Co." In oval with lyre crown...17/6..."Pedler Appliance" (i.e. no crow's foot).

W709...Grenadilla wood..."Harry Pedler & Co." In oval...17/6..."Pedler Appliance".

W3211..."The Pedler Co."   silver keys...adjustment screw at crow's foot.

W8007...Wood..."The Pedler Co."...18/7..."Pedler Appliance" (i.e. no crow's foot)...matching serials on UJ and LJ...pinned top joint.

W8267...Wood ..."The Pedler Co."...18/7...articulated C#/G#..."Pedler Appliance" (i.e. no crow's foot).

W8862...Wood..."The Pedler Co." in oval w/lyre crown...19/7...articulated C#/G#..."Pedler Appliance".

W11407...Wood..."The Pedler Co." In oval with lyre crown on top joint and bell...S/N on top rear of top joint, and bottom rear of bottom joint...short barrel and long top joint...silver-plated keywork...blue, forged needle springs...17/6...4 upper joint trill key posts..."Pedler Appliance" (i.e. no crow's foot)...no case.

W14830...ALTO CLARINET...Wood...complete plateau.

W17337..."The Pedler Co."...adjustment screws at crow's foot.

W17392..."The Pedler Co."...Silver keys..."screw ring key adjustment"

W17490...BASS CLARINET...wood..."The Pedler Co." in oval with lyre crown, and "Custombuilt" art deco bell.

W19822...BASS CLARINET...Wood..."The Pedler Co." in oval w/lyre crown...S/N on UJ and LJ.




A-SERIES

A850...Grenadilla wood..."Harry Pedler & Co." In oval...17/6...over/under thumbrest screws...crow's foot...matching S/N on UJ and LJ.

A2915...Grenadilla wood..."American, The Pedler Co." (no oval)...Pedler-branded Geib case...s/n on LJ only...17/6...over/under thumbrest screws...crow's foot...original "The Pedler" mouthpiece.

A3395...Wood...17/6...crow's foot..."The Pedler Co." In oval with lyre crown...original Pedler branded Geib style case..."Sgt. Bob Mitchell, HQ 4th Army" tag in case liner, and "US" stamped into barrel. 

A3666...Wood..."American, The Pedler Co." (no oval)...Pedler branded Geib style case...17/6...over/under thumbrest screws...crow's foot...lyre mount on lower joint tenon socket ring.

A3893...Grenadilla...UNBRANDED...17/6...crow's foot...lyre mount on lower joint tenon socket ring...50/50 case.

A4522...Wood..."American, The Pedler Co." (No oval).

A5793...Wood..."American, The Pedler Co."...17/6.

A6909...Wood..."The Pedler Co." in oval with lyre crown, and "American By Pedler" on bell...individual top joint trill key posts...lyre mount on lower joint tenon socket ring...Geib style Pedler branded case.

A6937...Wood..."American, The Pedler Co. (No oval)...17/6...crow's foot...individual top joint trill key posts...factory lyre mount ring...Geib style "Pedler" branded case.

A7934...Wood..."American By Pedler" on Bell, and "The Pedler Co." on barrel...17/6...crow's foot...Geib style Pedler branded case.





G-SERIES

G2028..."Pennant” (Grenolite)...Lower joint only.

G2440...”Pennant” (Grenolite)...Upper joint only.

G5962..."Pedler Grenolite" (on barrel)... "Pennant" on top front of top joint...("Pedler" in banner on bell)...17/6...4 upper joint trill key posts...crow's foot.




METAL SERIES

478...Metal..."The Pedler Co." In oval w/ lyre crown...and "U.S." underneath...17/6.

7348...Metal..."Made by Harry Pedler & Co., Elkhart Ind."...with elaborate rosette motif engraving...17/6.

7672...Metal..."The Pedler Premiere, Elkhart Ind." in oval...17/6...early, bar-type crow's foot..."F" batch marks under lower trill keys...long, fully assembled case.

8565...Metal..."The Pedler Premiere, Elkhart, Ind." in oval...17/6...crow's foot...long, fully assembled case.

9727...Metal..."The Pedler Premiere, Elkhart, Ind." in oval...17/6...crow's foot...long, fully assembled case.

10033...Metal...Eb..."Harry Pedler Inc." (very unusual!)...rough, fully assembled case.

10728...Metal..."American, Harry Pedler & Co."...17/6...Fully asembled long Pedler case...open logo...crow's foot.

10906...Metal..."The Pedler Premiere, Elkhart Ind." In oval, WITHOUT lyre crown...17/6 with thin bar "crow's foot...original long style case.

10992...Metal..."The Pedler Premiere, Elkhart, Ind."...17/6.

11XXX...Bass Clarinet...all metal..."Harry Pedler & Co."...Low Eb...Ornate engraving on bell with "goldwash" inside.

11141...Metal..."American, Harry Pedler & Co."...17/6...open logo...crow's foot.

11551...Metal..."American, Harry Pedler & Co."...17/6...Fully assembled long Pedler case...open logo...crow's foot.

11754...Metal..."American, Harry Pedler & Co."...17/6...Fully assembled long Pedler case...open logo...crow's foot...original Harry Pedler replacement spring card with springs.

12070...Metal..."American, Harry Pedler & Co."...17/6...Fully assembled long Pedler case...open logo...crow's foot.

13150...Metal..."American, Harry Pedler & Co"...17/6...Fully assembled long Pedler case...open logo...crow's foot.

13693...Metal..."American, Harry Pedler & Co."...17/6...Fully assembled long Pedler case...open logo...reported date of manufacture is 1935-1936 (plausible, though unsubstantiated)...crow's foot.

13769...Metal..."American, Harry Pedler & Co."...17/6...Fully assembled in long Pedler case...open logo.

E13935...Metal..."Precision  Hand-Made  Harry Pedler & Co. Elkhart, Ind." engraved on bell...detachable bell...17/6...Pedler Appliance. (ODD metal clarinet with confirmed E-Prefix).

15365...Metal..."American, Harry Pedler & Co."...  "fully assembled" long Pedler case...open logo...17/6.

23603...Metal(?)…Warranty Card..."Harry Pedler and Co., Inc....Bb clarinet...Model: 167.

28300...Metal..."Student Made by Pedler"...17/6...crow's foot.

29825...Metal...open "Pedler HOOSIER Elkhart Indiana" on bell...17/6...crow's foot...fully assembled long Pedler case.

34566...Metal..."Pedler Custombuilt"...17/6...crow's foot.

35890...Metal..."Pedler American" in ornate Art Deco engraving...17/6...fully assembled long Pedler case...crow's foot.

36066...Metal..."The Pedler Co." in oval with lyre crown...17/6...fully assembled long Pedler case...crow's foot.

36070...Metal..."Student" and "Made By Pedler"...17/6...fully assembled long Pedler case...crow's foot.

37665...Metal..."Pedler Hoosier" (elaborate art deco bell engraving)...17/6...fully assembled long Pedler case...crow's foot...S/N stamped on underside of LH pinky key.

37927...Metal..."Pedler Hoosier" (elaborate art deco bell engraving)...17/6...fully assembled long Pedler case...crow's foot...S/N stamped on underside of LH pinky key and above bell solder ring.

38213...Metal..."Pedler Custombuilt, Elkhart, Ind." (elaborate art deco bell engraving)...17/6...crow's foot...fully assembled Pedler-branded long case.

41082...Metal..."Student (in script) Made By Pedler"...17/6...crow's foot...long, "fully assembled" case.

46588...Metal..."Pedler Custombuilt, Elkhart, Ind." (elaborate art deco bell engraving)...17/6...crow's foot.

46780...Metal..."Pedler Custombuilt, Elkhart, Ind." (elaborate art deco bell engraving)...17/6...crow's foot.

47780...Metal..."Pedler Custombuilt, Elkhart, Ind." (elaborate art deco bell engraving)...17/6...crow's foot.


Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Airflyte on April 26, 2017, 11:39:12 AM
It has been said that Harry Pedler preferred Hard Rubber, and made clarinets in metal or Grenadilla wood upon request or demand.

Windsong, I find this statement rather intriguing. If you could state your source of this info, it would be greatly appreciated!

 

Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on April 26, 2017, 02:17:16 PM
I think this is on another thread. It might be hard to read the section on ebonite. Harry was quite a proponent of ebonite. Grenadilla was special order on sopranos, rosewood appears to have been standard on basses and altos which were produced in much lower numbers.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: modernicus on April 26, 2017, 06:07:17 PM
I'll take a 207 in...C ;)
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on April 26, 2017, 07:53:17 PM
Airflyte,
Sorcerer's brouchure is just one example, and I have read it elsewhere, as well, but admittedly, I think it was in another link I had to translate.  I will have to check.  I am not the consummate record keeper, but I have a decent memory, not that this helps with providing evidence.  I have read that Grenadilla was at times scarce and embargos and tariffs at the time made it more expensive to procure in America, so it is entirely plausible that this drove Harry Pedler to find a sustainable product. 

While just a strong hunch that will require more research, I firmly believe Pedler and Conn both had an inside line on solid rod rubber from their friend and fellow co-worker Jessie James Babbitt.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on April 27, 2017, 11:31:17 AM
Grenadilla mostly came from France, but the French took it from African colonies. It was only difficult to get when wars made trade difficult. U-boats, I suppose? It is also true that import tariffs financed the US government before the Federal Reserve/Income tax era began. Imported grenadilla was taxed. Rubber is also imported to the USA, so the tariff problem would apply to either material.

In any case the French themselves priced Ebonite clarinets higher than ebony or grenadilla in 1902. Good wood was readily available and hard rubber was the new technology;- more durable and stable, particularly well suited for use in military bands and after many decades hard rubber clarinets still retain their original acoustic properties, if not always their dyed color.

When Pedler was making primarily hard rubber clarinets, many other USA makers were making them from grenadilla. It is not clear that the availability of grenadilla was a major factor in his material choice. I am certainly not inclined to repeating unsubstantiated rumors. That is the problem with the historical record in any division of the record. Over time, legends are taken as truths and should not be. The tendency to repeat an oral tradition should be discouraged. Without sources for a memorized oral tradition, or where we might have read something, we should be cautious. What is that adage? History is the lie most universally agreed upon. That is what happens without searching or re-searching sources. Any rumor can be written down, and that does not increase the veracity of the rumor. A great number of these rumors are in history text books at this point.

For some reason we do not see many early wood Conn clarinets. In fact I can't really remember seeing even one that was properly identified. We know that during part of that period of hard rubber Conns, Pedler worked for Conn. During that same period Bettoney and Penzel-Mueller and Pruefer were making plenty of wooden clarinets. Maybe they had a grenadilla stock pile? We really don't know.

What we do know is that the Harry Pedler catalog is a historical document, not a legend or rumor. We also know that the large number of wooden Pedler clarinets are from the Martin BIC / Pedler Woodwinds period of production. I have seen one genuine wooden Harry Pedler. I passed on it because of the number and severity of the repairs coupled with the high price. It had a diamond logo, similar to the diamond logo on the rosewood basses;- I don't think I saved any photos of it because the photos were not very good. I figured I would eventually see another one. Well;- not yet.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on April 27, 2017, 09:30:35 PM
Solid post, Sorcerer, and firmly rooted in the presentation of fact, at that.
We don't really know *why* Hard Rubber was Harry's "material of choice".   For all we know, it may well have initially been a suggestion or even a directive from Conn to Pedler that was well received, and warmly embraced.  It may well have been Harry's idea, entirely, as well, and perhaps it was Conn who realised that Harry was onto something.  It is common knowledge that Conn was a risk taker in business endeavors, and he thrived (and dare I say, suceeded, quite often) in the chaos of uncertainty.
I have seen no documentation, anywhere which describes the desire to move away from traditional materials to Hard Rubber, and any theories drawn from any set of given circumstances without more data can only be seen at this time as entirely speculative--though speculate I will, to be sure.
There is precious little information out there on this topic, and it's garbled, indiciferable nonsense, ofttimes, regurgitated from site to site, and presented as "the truth", when it may, or very well may not be so.

We have no choice but to all begin with folklore, and work to disprove it, if we can...
If we cannot, and especially if we find documentation supporting or disproving our hypotheses, we must embrace or deny it, respectively, respectfully and responsibly.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on April 27, 2017, 09:49:24 PM
OK, tell us all about Bibbat, Conn, and Pedler...  ::) ...

Bibbat, Conn, Pedler and a monkey walked into an opera house.....
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on April 28, 2017, 12:20:53 PM
Oh, I intend to, and that's "Babbitt".  ;)

With a rare free-day, I took the opportunity to make steady headway on my many theories.  I will remain optimistic that we can soon substitute speculation for fact, or at least draw more specific conclusions based upon some additional facts. 

I discovered new (to me) information this AM, and I answered several of my questions in the process.

It does appear that the trade embargo abruptly cut off supplies from France in 1916, forcing Harry Pedler to source his stock elsewhere (Central and South America, most likely; Rosewood originates from Honduras, primarily, and rubber trees [Euphorbiaceae] grow in both Central and South America).  It's also important to note that there are no readily available records of Harry Pedler producing any clarinets between the years of 1916 and 1919, but I will forever be on the lookout for the elusive AMC. (I'd be delighted to know of anyone who has seen or has procured one). 

UPDATE:  It appears as though our own Lisa has procured not one, but two potential clarinets made by Harry Pedler and William Gronert in the interrem years of 1916-1919.  (See other posts on this forum for photos!)

I believe the reason hard rubber clarinets sometimes sold for more than grenadilla clarinets had more to do with the complex production and machining costs associated with it, and not necessarily because Ebonite was more prized, or comprised of more expensive raw materials, though admittedly--I don't know.  I have read of the volatility of the rubber rod stock making process, and its tendancy to warp and shrink during manufacturing, and I have to believe that such a grand headache could only be remedied by a compensatory pricetag.  I intend on digging more into that, as well.

Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Airflyte on April 28, 2017, 01:47:22 PM
OK, tell us all about Bibbat, Conn, and Pedler...  ::) ...

Bibbat, Conn, Pedler and a monkey walked into an opera house.....
. . . . . . oh, this will be good! . . . . . .

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/AKXlhpeb6wI/hqdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on May 06, 2017, 08:07:41 PM
Here is a Harry bass model 201A with the early marks and bell engraving. This is probably part of the original USQMC instrument acquisition that was in the early 1920s. I don't know the serial. The diamond logo is one not seen too often. That one has a substitute neck, most likely from a Selmer 9 model.

There is another 201A I know of that has the serial # 1103, and my 201A is serial #1126
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on May 07, 2017, 01:42:26 PM
Fantastic em"bell"ishment!  Just beautiful.  Some of Elkhart's great work.  Thanks for that.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on May 07, 2017, 05:43:34 PM
Fantastic em"bell"ishment!  Just beautiful.  Some of Elkhart's great work.  Thanks for that.
My next skill to learn is metal engraving, so I can do some cool stuff like that. Modern bells are really no fun at all.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Airflyte on May 22, 2017, 11:25:13 AM
"Bumping" this thread for the timeline updates. Good work Windsong.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: 350 Rocket on May 27, 2017, 07:14:12 PM
As far as I am aware, no true Harry Pedler clarinets (1919-1930) were ever adorned with a serial number, and some were not even engraved at all--even with his name, during the earliest years.  The standing exception is that BBb models may have been serialized early in their production.  Until disproven, it is a cautious measure to operate under the calculated assumption that the serial number process began across the model spectrum when Martin Band Instrument Company took the reins in 1930.

I believe this to be at least partially incorrect. I've recorded a number of serialized Pedler metal clarinets that have every appearance of being made prior to the Martin era. The Premiere model, which was introduced in 1928, begins about where expected and I've never seen one (nor any other metal Pedler) without a serial. It's quite plausible that serialization began in the latter half of the 1920s rather than upon the Martin purchase.

I've noticed that metal Pedlers after a certain point have beveled toneholes. I'd have to surmise that those were influenced by Martin saxophones. Other notes I have:

The Pedler metal bass was introduced in March 1930 at the Music Supervisors' National Conference. This was the same month that Martin purchased Pedler. Multiple sources state that Pedler was operated as a separate entity after the purchase.

The Music Trades Review reported in April 1931 that the Pedlers had resigned from the company.

I've made note of a Premier (not Premiere) serial no. P8654 that was sold on 6-20-1942 for $121.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on May 28, 2017, 05:01:26 AM
Welcome, 350 Rocket,
Thank you for your knowledge, and contribution of a "date stake", as they are typically golden keys.  The 4 new bits of data you contribute are significant.
I will update my initial posting, and would appreciate further details on any documentation you may have.
Regards-

EDIT:  Music Trade Review is a treasure trove of extremely valuable information.  Just incredible, in fact.  Thank you again for sharing that, Rocket.

Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: 350 Rocket on May 28, 2017, 04:31:21 PM
Glad to be of help. I have a lot of raw data (list of instruments) that I can work on processing/interpreting. Admittedly, my research is heavily biased towards the Martin era as mine are from that period.

I own five Pedlers, so if there's any details I can examine just ask. An Ebonite E21xxx, wood Premier 18/7 P43xx, metal American 22xxx, metal Custombuilt 46xxx, and a plastic GrenOlite G10xx.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on May 29, 2017, 06:45:43 AM
In sorting out a timeline, it might be of some use to note the styles of various key work features. I have seen a few differences that might translate to periods of manufacture. The most obvious one is the shape of the bridge linkage. There are some that feature the typical post WW2 "T" shaped bridge tab on the lower ring key. My guess would be that all of those with the "T" engagement are the latest key work type. There are also two different throat trill configurations, but these have to do more with model type than production period.

Some Pedlers have no shared throat trill pivot posts;- Pedler Woodwinds was one of the few makers to offer clarinets with completely separated throat trill pivots (Another maker worth noting for this is the later Martin Freres upper end student models). I think there are a few other makers that also had completely separate throat trill pivots.

There are also at least two different key shapes for the throat trill keys. One type has the typical hills and valleys, another has a gentler sweeping curve from the top to the bottom of the keys without any raised points. It will take getting some samples matched to the serials to figure out if these styles were produced at the same time or if one preceded the other. The key shapes of the Harry Pedler era are quite different from the MBIC era, but when the changes takes place might not coincide perfectly with the change of ownership.

Quote
I've made note of a Premier (not Premiere) serial no. P8654 that was sold on 6-20-1942 for $121.

It is really good news to have that date stake even if it is the only one. At least we now have a pegged midpoint for the Premier model. A curious finding from examples I have is that during the late Harry Pedler period, the model was marked "Premiere". That was later changed to "Premier" but exactly when that change was made is still elusive, most likely early in the MBIC era.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: 350 Rocket on May 29, 2017, 03:04:54 PM
I think the Premiere and Premier were completely different models, actually. The Premiere was marketed as a student instrument and I've only seen them in metal. The Premier seems to be only wood, and the existence of a 7-ring variant suggests it was more up-market. Considering the definitions of each word, that seems the most plausible. Unfortunate choice by the marketing department though.

All of my Pedlers have a shared post for the throat keys, but I noticed something important - earlier models have the rods for both keys in the same plane (i.e. the threaded ends could intersect) like a Bundy, later models have the Ab rod set above the A rod, like a Conn. My American and Premier (both from the '30s) have the older style while the Ebonite, Custombuilt, and Grenolite have the newer style.

I have a photo of a guarantee bond of a Model 157, serial no. E20675, with "8/21/47" written in the upper margin. Without any context I couldn't put much stock in it before, but knowing that revised keywork had probably appeared by this point we might have E20000 as a rough starting point for postwar production.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on May 29, 2017, 11:02:51 PM
That has the makings of a tremendous artifact.  Please post up pics if/when you have them available.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on May 30, 2017, 05:15:54 AM
I think the Premiere and Premier were completely different models, actually. The Premiere was marketed as a student instrument and I've only seen them in metal. The Premier seems to be only wood, and the existence of a 7-ring variant suggests it was more up-market. Considering the definitions of each word, that seems the most plausible. Unfortunate choice by the marketing department though.

All of my Pedlers have a shared post for the throat keys, but I noticed something important - earlier models have the rods for both keys in the same plane (i.e. the threaded ends could intersect) like a Bundy, later models have the Ab rod set above the A rod, like a Conn. My American and Premier (both from the '30s) have the older style while the Ebonite, Custombuilt, and Grenolite have the newer style.

I have a photo of a guarantee bond of a Model 157, serial no. E20675, with "8/21/47" written in the upper margin. Without any context I couldn't put much stock in it before, but knowing that revised keywork had probably appeared by this point we might have E20000 as a rough starting point for postwar production.

If you have that photo, please share it here, and photos of other documentation, sales receipts, etc. I think it is best to pool the artifacts and document them here rather than simply reference such documents. That way we have a substantiated record of collective experience rather than one person's limited experience.

I have one clarinet marked Pedler Premiere (French spelling) that is hard rubber with no serial. It's featured and documented in another thread ( http://clarinetpages.info/smf/index.php?topic=1122.0 ), identical to a La Premiere Française, which also was made by Harry Pedler. The key work is like that of the Harry Pedler era;- check the shape of the throat trills. The only difference I can see between that Premiere and "The Pedler" model by Harry is that the Premiere does not have the Pedler appliance on the lower joint and has a standard crow's foot arrangement. Of course that difference would mean that the Pedler model with the appliance would have been a higher end model than the Premiere without it, even during the Harry Pedler era.

I have documented another Premiere (French spelling) 7-ring that is also hard rubber, E3253. It also has keys that are mostly seen during the MBIC period;- again check the throat trill key work (seller's photo below), one shared trill pivot. Presumably there are wooden, ebonite, as well as metal Premier models, and definitely ebonite Premiere models. All three of the later MBIC Pedler woodwinds models were available in wood, hard rubber, or silver plated metal, according to an old advertisement from 1940, which I assume is authentic. Advertisements and catalog pages provide a snapshot of what was available at a particular point, but of course that could have changed independent of an ad or catalog at any time.

I also have a MBIC Premier wooden 7-ring, P9218. It's very nicely made, but it does not have the same mechanism as a 7-ring Pedler model P11297, nor does it have silver-plated keys as does P11297. Whether it is spelled Premiere or Premier, it is an intermediate model. There probably aren't many Premiere models made in wood because at the time of that production there were simply not many Pedler soprano clarinets of any kind made in wood.

The Premiere and Premier were different models, but mostly because these were built at different times. These were both second in the line up whatever period is considered. The two Permiere models that I reference above seem to indicate that at some point the Premiere became the Premier simply with the removal of one letter at the end of the name. The second model in the line was still being marked Premiere when the MBIC type throat trills came into use, and fairly deep into serialization as well.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on May 30, 2017, 06:54:10 AM
Regarding the shared or unshared throat trill pivot posts, in the case of all 15 of the professional Pedler models that I have documented (usually with sellers' photos such as these) all of the throat trills are mounted independently. This applies to both the ebonite and wooden "The Pedler" professional models. It might be a distinguishing key work feature of the professional models made during most of the MBIC era. Just to make sure we are referencing the same mechanism, here are two examples that show the independent UJ throat trill posts. I am NOT referencing the upper joint ring keys that are on the front of the joint. I am talking about the pivot mounts for the trills. The most common arrangement on Boehm clarinets is for two of these keys to share a pivot. On the Pedlers, often these are mounted independently, and it appears to be on the professional models.

Not all the sellers' photos will show the back sides of the UJ, so it is not possible to determine in every case what the post arrangement is, but in the instances where it was possible to see it clearly, so far it's 100% independent posts on the professional Pedler models that have the trill key style that appears to have been in use for most of the MBIC era.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: 350 Rocket on May 30, 2017, 06:46:04 PM
Ah, I saw "throat" and thought you meant A and Ab. Nevertheless, that appears to be a difference worth studying as well.

For what it's worth, all of mine from the Custombuilt to the Grenolite have the trill keys on four sets of posts. I've noticed that lower-grade metal clarinets (Student, Hoosier, and the early American) have shared posts for the low E/B and F#/C# levers.

Below are a couple of Martin-era warranty cards, one is the dated one I mentioned above. The J.O. Thompson whose name appears on them became sales manager of Martin in December 1931 when management was reshuffled after O.P. Bassett passed away. He was mentioned as being with Pedler in 1937, and the 1940 census listed him as vice president of "Pedler Band Factory". If enough examples of these cards are found, whose signature appears when may lead to something.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on May 31, 2017, 10:54:47 AM
I have noticed a good bit of variation in the G#/A key layout on the models I have. The post positions change on both keys. The way that variation progresses could also be an indicator of sequence of production. Small changes like that are often made while other things remain consistent. I'll take a look at what I have in photos as well as the ones in my inventory. I think we can take that 1947 marked warranty card as a date certain. It looks like the date and other writing were made with the same ink, same pen, and same hand writing. I wouldn't assume that it marks anything with certainty except the E (ebonite?) prefixed serials. Since the hard rubber was very popular, there should be plenty of those serials to spread before and after that date.

If we then match the slight detail changes that evolved in the key work, then we can probably get some good rough parallel dates for the P, A, and W prefixed serials. I am pretty sure that we are going to find the same thing that I found with Penzel Mueller;- that the numbers are only sequential within a given model production sequence. In other words, there are likely to be 4 different serial sequences that were running parallel in time.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on May 31, 2017, 05:49:14 PM
Thank you Rocket, for the warranty card photos, and thank you, Sorcerer for your proposed notion that we may be hasty in our conclusion that serial numbers are necessarily chronological, independent of prefix. 

While I am inclined to separate models (P,E,N,W,A,G, etc.), I may wait on that, and just remove the presumed date ranges for now, until such time when more affirmative information is available, and simply add the warranty card information.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: 350 Rocket on May 31, 2017, 08:04:52 PM
What I've seen suggests that each serial number prefix is of a separate sequence.

The highest number for each series that I've recorded:

51897
E36606
P19356
W19506
A3677
G1873

The warranty cards above confirm that 23000 is 1937 or earlier, and E20000 is after WWII. The date marked on the second one is probably the sale date, but there's no way any pre-war stock was left unsold. The Premier sale date I mentioned earlier suggests P8600 to be in the early 1940s.

I have two other cards in my research archive for Ebonite clarinets, both with Harry Pedler's signature.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on May 31, 2017, 10:59:57 PM
One thing I noticed was that the metal clarinets listed did not have a letter prefix serial. That is curious. We need more of those metal serials to know how many of the metal ones that applies to.

I think it is wise to maintain just the list for now and draw conclusions as more of the serials, dated documents and anecdotal information comes in. This project is moving pretty well and it certainly has the potential to be the most complete compilation of Pedler information drawn from surviving artifacts. It is ironic that a company that produced so many instruments for so long as yet has no central pool of information. Given a little more time, I think we can collect enough here to form a detailed history of the Harry Pedler and Pedler Woodwinds history.

That Penzel Mueller timeline still has a lot of gaps to close and it took a while to get it to the current state starting with just a few instruments and no documents. 
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on June 01, 2017, 01:17:22 AM
Excellent contributions there, Rocket.
Very smart of you to consciously record the highest SN for each model run.
Nice Guarantee Bonds, as well.  It certainly appears that they were signed by Sid Pedler, himself.  I was not aware he had any part in the original venture, but the signature very clearly looks like "Sid".  Examine the clear "S", the"I" climbing the arm to the "P" and the wrap-around "D".
If this is, in fact, Sid's signature, I *suspect* this might mean these were issued prior to April 1931, family loyalty being what it often is, as his father and older brother had both left the company by then.
Further graphology will be required to substantiate this, but I believe this to be plausible.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: 350 Rocket on June 01, 2017, 04:26:45 PM
One thing I noticed was that the metal clarinets listed did not have a letter prefix serial. That is curious. We need more of those metal serials to know how many of the metal ones that applies to.
Out of 77 metal Pedler clarinets I've recorded, none have a letter prefix in the serial.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on June 01, 2017, 05:08:47 PM
I wonder if model 167 is a metal clarinet?
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: 350 Rocket on June 02, 2017, 02:58:20 PM
I wonder if model 167 is a metal clarinet?
Yes, it was a metal American, the later style with art-deco engraving.

Pictures of the two metal American engraving styles I've seen are below. I don't think the change in engraving quite correlates to Harry Pedler reclaiming the rights to his name, since the guarantee bond above still says Harry Pedler & Co. There is a gap in American models in my notes, the highest plain engraving is 15711 and the lowest art-deco is 22xxx.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on June 02, 2017, 03:43:04 PM
OK, great details on that one taken together, while it was still the Harry Pedler Co., metal American #23603 was sold, and we know what it looks like. Way cool.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: noneyet on August 10, 2017, 07:15:27 AM
Hi Windsong. Here's another for the list. Serial is E33152 on both UJ and LJ. "The Pedler Co." stamped on bell, but not on barrel. The mouthpiece is original as it is stamped "The Pedler Co." as well. I'm guessing the UJ and LJ are hard rubber. The bell and barrel seem to be Bakelite (I think). Maybe your eye can confirm from the bell pic.  Hope these pics suffice!

I'll have another Pedler for the list next week sometime  ;)
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on August 10, 2017, 05:12:24 PM
Thanks for that, Noneyet.  I'll add it to the list.  Do you own this one?

Whenever you see an "E" before the serial, you may be assured it's hard rubber.  It stands for "Ebonite".

This clarinet is hard rubber, and--oddly enough, I think you may actually be right about the Bakelite bell.  It certainly has the sparkle of Bakelite.  If it is, this is the first one I have ever seen so adorned.

Sorcerer:  your thoughts on that bell?
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 10, 2017, 06:41:03 PM
I've haven't seen a Bakelite bell on a Pedler, unless this is one. It certainly has that look under the flash from the camera. It doesn't look like the same material as the joints in the photo above either. I can't see the barrel well enough. The other thing I see is that it has the less common UJ trill shapes. Also, note that it has no shared pivot posts for the UJ trills;- typically that means it's the top model, The Pedler, whithout a different model name.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on August 10, 2017, 06:54:35 PM
Yes...very curious.  Harry Pedler never used bakelite in production, to my knowledge, but who knows what Martin used?  If this was an experimental material, it may be uncommon, but the SN is late in production, and I focus primarily on early models, so I am no expert on late 40s-early 50s Pedlers.  The UJ trills are indeed later.

I will certainly be  paying more attention to SNs close to this one from now on.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: noneyet on August 10, 2017, 07:28:39 PM
Yeah, Windsong, she is one of mine. I'm glad to see she exhibits some unusual characteristics. I'm like a proud poppa  ;D

Do you need better pics of any parts? Just let me know; I'm at your service.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on August 10, 2017, 08:21:04 PM
Nice score, Noneyet.  We NEVER refuse further photos.  I'd like to see the trill keys on the UJ better.  These 17/6 HR Pedlers are every bit as good as anything else of the time.  Keywork was solid and precise, and intonation fine.  I can tell that this clarinet was played a lot, by the wear on the keys, which tells me it played well.  Harry's hard rubber (and MBIC's too) weathers wonderfully.  It is among the best of the time.  I have a number of them, now, from the teens to the mid 1930s, and love them all.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: noneyet on August 10, 2017, 08:22:08 PM
Your wish is my command  ;)   ...and the other Pedler is on the way as of today :)
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 10, 2017, 08:51:54 PM
Take a couple of shots of the upper joint next to that Alexandre Paris upper joint;- just for kicks...  ;)
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: noneyet on August 10, 2017, 09:12:22 PM
Okey-dokey, here ya go : Pedler on bottom, Alexandre on top

Practically twins! The only thing that jumps out to me is the number of posts for the trill keys
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 11, 2017, 04:59:13 AM
Remarkable.

I think Pedler did make some clarinets with similar trills but with a shared pivot post. So does that Alexandre have a serial number?
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: noneyet on August 11, 2017, 06:03:55 AM
Serial # 51440, only on the lower joint
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 11, 2017, 06:52:56 AM
From a seller's listing on ebay a few years back, I collected some a couple of photos of a similar A. Paris, serial # 31204. If they started at zero, where are the rest of these? Mostly I see the German ones or the SML variant. Sometimes you might see a "Woodwind Co." clarinet that also looks like SML and it is invariably made in France. The German ones don't have the same serial sequence I don't think. We might want to move this discussion to the other thread. I'm not sure. Made in USA and looking like they look suggests a relationship to Pedler for the USA ones, but the serials?
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: 350 Rocket on August 11, 2017, 03:36:20 PM
Yes...very curious.  Harry Pedler never used bakelite in production, to my knowledge, but who knows what Martin used?  If this was an experimental material, it may be uncommon, but the SN is late in production, and I focus primarily on early models, so I am no expert on late 40s-early 50s Pedlers.  The UJ trills are indeed later.

I will certainly be  paying more attention to SNs close to this one from now on.
This one is probably less than 4,000 units away from the end of production. The bell definitely looks like some type of plastic to me, but I don't recall seeing one on a Pedler before. It's probably close to the introduction of the Grenolite, so maybe they were experimenting with plastic bells before they started building the all-plastic model.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 11, 2017, 03:51:22 PM
Straight bridge link, no "T" shaped connector clutch like there are on most post WW2 clarinets. I think it's Bakelite. I could be wrong. A good number of makers used Bakelite for bells at different times including Bettoney, Penzel-Mueller, and an Italian maker I haven't identified. It has that same semi-translucent surface with the glitter underneath in hard light. Also the way the logo is etched has the sharp edges.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: noneyet on August 11, 2017, 11:18:48 PM
Hey Windsong. Here's a few I didn't see on the list. My Pedler "Pennant" has an expected delivery date of Friday. I can't wait to post pics  ;D

http://www.saxquest.com/product/view/vintage-bb-pedler-clarinet-with-original-case-serial-number-p11172-P5777

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-PEDLER-Bb-Clarinet-HARD-RUBBER-/152642807096?rmvSB=true

From the pics the serial on this one is "P22229"
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Elkhart-039-The-Pedler-039-Bb-Soprano-Clarinet-sn-222229-w-Mouthpiece-amp-Case-/332303034786?rmvSB=true&nma=true&si=8T6Kc6%252BMO8d8QgFQyXlThCThxOA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: noneyet on August 13, 2017, 06:49:01 PM
Here's one more Pedler with pics for the list:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/231233860081

I asked the seller to take a pic of the serial and he replied "It would be a stinker to photograph due to the curvature, but the serial number is E14613" so I guess we know where the number is located  ;)
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 17, 2017, 01:37:28 PM
I have been holding out for a reasonably priced Pedler alto, or any good antique alto, and finally I hit pay dirt with one from Taylor Music, Inc. in South Dakota;- in business since 1956. I like it when I get to deal with a company with a little history.

It's Harry Pedler 175A (low Eb key) model with a nicely engraved bell, but no other marks I can find and no serial number. It does look like the same wood as my Harry bass, reported to be rosewood in the 1920s catalog,  and the manual double register is the same kind of mechanism. It's a miniature of the bass, except only two plateau keys, the left thumb and the LH-4 tone hole. This might take some stretching to get used to, but the trade off is that it will be as easy to set up as a soprano Boehm with rings.

This is my first alto and with no mouthpiece yet (need one to fit a 24.4mm socket), all I can say is that it looks like it should play as is. Of course there's room for some tweaks everywhere, there are some newer pads mixed with the old and a couple with some mold to kill. It needs cleaning up. There is the typical flatness on what should be a round bell bow, but it isn't crushed inward. That kind of work goes to Charles King here for correction.

Visible previous repair is one (lowest on the body) key cup replacement done so well that the only clue is that the cup is not quite the same shape (looks like a silver plated sax key cup). The rest of the metal is original. I really like the compact case it came in, which is original and in great condition and very sturdy. These were the seller's photos and better than usual.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 17, 2017, 04:28:13 PM
This is pretty funny, but it shows a 201a, sort of. Not the best performance, but interesting to see a youngster with one these. I think the manual double register is causing confusion.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZueMvpFPDJU
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: noneyet on August 19, 2017, 08:09:52 AM
I was trolling through the archives and landed on this thread :

http://clarinetpages.info/smf/index.php?topic=193.0

Looking at the pics I have to wonder : is this a Pedler stencil?
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 19, 2017, 08:26:31 AM
What details of that J.E. Ray clarinet point to Pelder? Be specific. Convince me. You know I am a skeptic, particularly regarding suggestion.  8)
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: noneyet on August 19, 2017, 08:52:08 AM
Mostly key shape, specifically, the C#/G# and Eb sliver keys. Then there's the shared throat key posts. These three things are practically identical to my Pedler. Also the thin, non-T bridge connector looks the same.

That being said, the shape of the trill keys is NOT like my Pedler. My Pedler is a one-humper, not a three humper like the J.E. Ray.
The LH pinky cluster touches are NOTHING like my Pedler but I'll bet you know a manufacturer that matches the distinct style.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 19, 2017, 12:02:27 PM
Are there any other makers with "similar" keys of those that you mention, and are those keys actually interchangeable? I'm not sure exactly what shared posts you mean on the throat.  I have seen Kohlerts and Pruefers with that curved G# on the upper joint, and some Pruefers with similar arrangement at the RH5 cluster. I don't think it's Pruefer. I don't think it's Pedler. I don't think it's Kohlert. I don't know who made the J. E. Ray clarinets. For now "I don't know" will have to do until I see a maker's clarinet that matches better.

As far as the shared throat key posts, are these in the exact same position? Because what you are looking for is interchangeable parts, and lots of them, like 9 out of 10. And then there is the serial format and location;- not at all the same as Pedler. In fact that serial location is probably the best clue. it's not typical and no, it isn't Penzel Mueller either.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: noneyet on August 19, 2017, 12:16:14 PM
The only other maker I've seen serialize horizontally besides PM is Bettoney, so....?
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 19, 2017, 12:41:17 PM
The numbers are on the back of the Bettoney clarinets and the early Bettoneys had numbers running the typical direction located at the bottom back of the lower joint and no letters, just numbers and in a larger fon;- and nothing else on that looks anything like a Bettoney.

I'm not inclined to guess at provenance when there is a collection of clues that point different directions and no where in particular. Having to start an errors and corrections thread would be embarrassing.  ::)
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 19, 2017, 12:47:04 PM
Here's a good example of a stenciled clarinet made by Harry Pedler when provenance is about 99%+ certain;- note that there are no serial marks or country of origin marks to help in the determination: http://clarinetpages.info/smf/index.php?topic=1122.msg6211#msg6211

It's all about physical characteristics and it is best to have at least two examples of what you are matching and two more of what you are matching it to. As you can see, small details change over a production time, but a very large majority of the details remain the same.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: noneyet on August 19, 2017, 01:45:47 PM
I'm not inclined to guess at provenance when there is a collection of clues that point different directions and no where in particular. Having to start an errors and corrections thread would be embarrassing.  ::)

Just learning. So that would be a definitive no, eh?  :o
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 19, 2017, 01:57:28 PM
That's a definitive "I don't know and I am not willing to guess."
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on August 21, 2017, 08:20:19 PM
That's a nice looking alto, Sorcerer.  Glad you got one, and a Harry, at that.  That's an early one. (1923-1925?)
What can you tell us about that bell "stitching"? 
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 22, 2017, 08:18:06 AM
That's the bell brazing seam. Interesting detail, but I decided I liked the bell better without that. Polishing with abrasives, I will only do with very fine abrasives so that wouldn't have worked. The line runs through the engraving and I don't want to soften the engraving. There are two approaches to oxidation or corrosion. The first is to simply remove it with an abrasive of some type. The second is to reverse it chemically. Reversing oxidation chemically conserves and in some cases restores the metal that is oxidized without removing it. In this case I just rubbed the areas that had the corrosion with a cotton swab soaked in vinegar. Looks like that worked well enough. There's still a bit of a shadow of the brazing line, but not so noticeable. I only used the vinegar, Wright's silver polish (which works slower on nickel-silver) and very fine jeweler's hard rouge on a cloth.

Too bad about the flattened area on the bow, but it's not that noticeable and it can be fixed professionally by any one that has the dent ball sets. I don't have any dent balls.

Unlike the Custom-built model that followed it, the 175A has a nickel-silver bell apparently or nickel plated brass. The Custom-built model gets some mad silver tarnish but this one just gets that dull patina of nickel. The style of the engraving is also quite different. The Custom-built is overall a redesign of the instrument and very different in mechanics and appearance.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 22, 2017, 09:01:59 AM
This explanation of the method of joining the metal that leaves the stitch pattern is covered very well here by Getzen:

http://www.getzen.com/gazette/2009/03/10/what-is-a-hand-hammered-bell/

Skip down to "How is the seam formed/brazed?"

This is the before photo of the bell that I posted earlier (if this works) and it shows the result of joining the metal. It was not intended to show on the original instrument. It shows up because of oxidation in the metal

http://clarinetpages.info/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1265.0;attach=4027;image

(http://clarinetpages.info/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1265.0;attach=4027;image)

I think reducing that line using vinegar chemistry helped it out immensely. The vinegar also helped reduce the small areas where something corrosive had spattered on the bell at one time. It looked like little droplets of corrosion and these are mostly gone, not quite invisible. Vinegar and a cotton Q-tip type swab, not steel wool, or any kind of mechanical abrasive. And this is the result

Upper and lower joints are currently being refitted but conserving the old pads which have had some good quality replacements already. There are probably a few that will need replacing but I can't test it until I get a mouthpiece. I can go ahead and get it all synched and quiet where I know the pads are good. Some of them are just dried out and have no flexibility. It's only a few, but on the upper joint shorter trill, it seats at such an angle that the pad really needs a soft surface. It might hold up for play testing if I am careful with that key.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 22, 2017, 10:37:49 AM
This is one of the 201A bass model bell's I posted the photo of earlier. This one is still available at the woodwind store. When I recently looked at the webpage there was no serial listed. This one has the single ring upper joint, where as the later 201A models are all plateau. The serialization starts on these sometime before the full plateau bass appears.

The style of the 175A bell engraving next to this 201A shows that these are from the same few years of production. The 175A looks identical to the one in the brochure from the mid 1920s.
(http://clarinetpages.info/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1265.0;attach=3205;image)
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on August 22, 2017, 02:25:10 PM
Great article, and nice polishing.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Lisa on September 18, 2017, 07:56:40 PM
This is a picture of the two Pedler clarinets I have so far, both are Bb.
The wooden one is already listed, The Pedler Co, in oval with lyre crown, 19 key 7 ring, articulated C#/G#, Pedler appliance (no crow's foot).  In great shape and plays well.  Serial number W8862
The metal one is considered a student model, but it's also in great shape and plays, though could use a couple pads.  This a Harry Pedler & Co "American". Serial number 11141.
On the metal one is a clear plastic, lucite(?) mouthpiece, The Pedler Co, purchased seperately, but it does fit in the barrel nicely.  I think it looks good too, with the metal body.
I think I'm kind of turning into a Pedler collector.  All I need as an Albert in Bb and another in C, though I think I'd have to arm wrestle Windsong for a Pedler in the key of C if one ever comes for sale.
Lisa
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on September 18, 2017, 09:33:13 PM
Pedler did an insane multicolored lucite-bodied clarinet at one point. I've only ever seen a couple.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on September 19, 2017, 12:43:37 PM
I readily admit to collecting Pedler Woodwinds as well as Harry Pedler. Incidentally, there are a few great candidates on the auctions now, including another Premiere Francais stencil by Harry.

WIth the bass and the alto, which might be the rarest, and I really just stumbled onto those, I've got a pretty good Pedler family in the making. Still, it seems there's always a model I haven't seen before.

I don't have any metal ones yet.

All the wood ones I've played are excellent so far. I still have a good number to get into playing shape of course, but I'm getting more focused on restoration work lately.

I have this theory that the Gren-O-lite might be a Bakelite mixture. I want to see one of those up close.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on October 08, 2017, 06:36:31 PM
This past week, a metal Harry Pedler "American, Harry Pedler & Co.", S/N:11754, sold on-line for its BIN price of $99.00.
While these clarinets are not especially uncommon, what IS uncommon is what was contained within the case, itself:  The original spring replacement card.  Perhaps a few of you noticed this one come through:
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Lisa on October 08, 2017, 07:26:28 PM
I already downloaded the picture for posterity, as it's exactly like mine, though I think my case is not original, it's tan.  Thank you for sharing.
  ;D
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on October 10, 2017, 05:53:40 AM
Today, Lisa brought to my attention (thank you, Lisa!) something I should have caught a long time ago; the fact that a good majority of H.N. White metal clarinets possess the Harry Pedler appliance.  The keywork is not precisely like Harry's original keywork, nor is it identical to MBIC's, though the 'knife blade' key arms share a strong similarity with the later MBIC Keywork.  For all you "Missourians" out there, I'll post up photos for comparison shortly.  Presently, have a look at a finely restored H. N. White with great detail:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SPLENDIDE-Clarinette-m%C3%A9tal-argent%C3%A9-CLEVELAND-HN-WHITE-U-S-A-Sib-Pr%C3%AAte-%C3%A0-jouer/222663310393?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

Thanks to Modernicus' sleuthing back in April of this year, a patent for possibly the first alternative to the crow's foot was uncovered, having been awarded to E. Bercioux:

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pages/US750935-0.png

The above H. N. White clarinet is a source of intrigue.  Was this an MBIC-era patent right sell-off?  Did Harry Pedler, himself, lease the patent rights to White?  Why were no Harry Pedler or MBIC "The Pedler" metal clarinets ever so equipped?  While the keywork differences are just different enough to keep from thinking this was a Pedler stencil, the similarities are worthy of note, and cause for further research.

Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on October 10, 2017, 06:53:41 AM
A few snaps of the "Pedler Appliance" on an original Harry Pedler 7-Ring, and a MBIC "The Pedler" 7-ring:
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Dibbs on October 10, 2017, 07:00:00 AM
...a good majority of H.N. White metal clarinets possess the Harry Pedler appliance...

And B&H 1010s (but not early ones) and of course Peter Eatons.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on October 10, 2017, 07:12:37 AM
Thanks for that, Dibbs.
Curiously, both companies have their roots in England, and of course Harry Pedler was an Englishman.  There may be no correlation, but it is interesting to note.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on October 10, 2017, 07:48:12 AM
As you can see, the actuator arm on the Pedler clarinets is closer to the pad cup arm than it is on the H. N. White apparatus--the primary difference, and seemingly not enough of a "change" to enable it to be considered a separate invention.

From info contained in the link below, it is gleaned that H. N. White did not stencil clarinets for other manufacturers.  This does not inherently imply that other companies did not make stencils for them.

http://www.hnwhite.com/Clarinets.htm

Additionally, the above link states that, "Some time between 1924 and 1931 the H. N. White Company started to manufacture brass Clarinets."
That's a pretty wide window, but nevertheless, it begins after Harry Pedler had successfully implemented his "Appliance", so it is plausible the design was "borrowed" or purchased from, or even made by Pedler. 

From a pure mechanical perspective, I believe the Pedler design to be superior, as the actuator arm is more centered, and should provide more even distribution of force on the pad, itself.


Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: 350 Rocket on October 10, 2017, 06:48:06 PM
As you can see, the actuator arm on the Pedler clarinets is closer to the pad cup arm than it is on the H. N. White apparatus--the primary difference, and seemingly not enough of a "change" to enable it to be considered a separate invention.
Actually, the clarinet in the eBay ad above has been damaged or modified in some manner - the mechanism is out of position. Every other H.N. White metal clarinet I've seen has had the regulation screw closer to the arm, much like the Pedlers. The opposite end of the mechanism is different though, as it sits directly on the F#/C# keycup and lacks the screw to adjust the F#/C# venting that the Pedlers have.

The Silver King was introduced in 1928 or 1929, and the lower-priced models probably at the same time, no later than 1930. I have never seen one without this mechanism.

H.N. White did stencil clarinets, but not many. They built all of their metal clarinets in-house as far as I know.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on October 10, 2017, 07:20:56 PM
Upon inspection of a couple of others currently for sale, I notice that the mechanism is much closer to the cup arm as you state, and almost identical to Pedler's invention.  The opposite side of the mechanism, as you also mention is free-standing on the Pedlers, and not bearing on the C#/G# cup.  White clarinets are not as sophisticated in that regard, but the design is not enough different to qualify for a different patent, since it's activated identically with the same keywork.
I need to see if I can hunt up a patent filed by Harry Pedler.  If none exists, it may be a fair assumption that the substitution of the crow's foot became a free-for-all for those so inlined and motivated.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on October 10, 2017, 08:03:05 PM
Okay; that didn't take long, but what I found is rather bizarre, indeed.
If one clicks on the link below, and then the patent PDF, it pulls up Harry's patent, filed on 21 May, 1934 and certified on 7 April, 1936.  Why would he wait so long after inventing this "Appliance" to patent it?  I think he may have been fearful that MBIC would sell it out from under him (and perhaps they did).  Was this one of the reasons he and his son had a falling out with MBIC and left abruptly?  Timeline-wise, it certainly is plausible.  There is certainly a grand story here that perhaps none of us will ever know.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2036492.html

Even more bizarre, the first time I clicked on the patent file, it pulled up NOT Harry Pedler's patent, but the Bercioux patent, instead, from 1902.

Explain that!
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: 350 Rocket on October 11, 2017, 04:08:45 PM
But if the Pedlers left in 1931, this would indicate that Harry Pedler was still required to assign his patents to his former company.

And even so, H.N. White was building clarinets with that mechanism before 1930, so if there was any agreement to allow White to use it, it would've been with Mr. Pedler alone.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on October 12, 2017, 05:12:28 PM
I appreciate your perspective, and perhaps you are right.  I know nothing of patent law, or the legalities of securing a patent post-production and implementation.  My take on it was that things were heating up, so to speak, and he felt that if he did not secure a patent, he would lose the rights to the invention.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on October 13, 2017, 04:39:37 PM
http://clarinetpages.info/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1003.0;attach=1467;image

If that link works it shows how Penzel Mueller Pruefer approached this particular adjustment, about 1915. It's not visible from the front and it's tiny. True art is the concealment of art?
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: 350 Rocket on October 13, 2017, 09:01:36 PM
I appreciate your perspective, and perhaps you are right.  I know nothing of patent law, or the legalities of securing a patent post-production and implementation.  My take on it was that things were heating up, so to speak, and he felt that if he did not secure a patent, he would lose the rights to the invention.
I don't either, but this Bettoney ad might shed light on something:
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on October 13, 2017, 09:08:05 PM
Fascinating.
Because my knowledge of metal clarinets grossly inadequate, I wonder who, in particular, they were pointing the finger at.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Silversorcerer on October 14, 2017, 05:26:08 PM
It probably was not Pedler. The primary Bettoney patent feature is the C# cross key that actuates the Eb ring key, allowing a forked left hand fingering for Eb. It's an easy way to get the best feature of a seven-ring Boehm without all the fuss.

Metal clarinets were made early in the 19th C. In Europe, so who knows who did what first. Chapelain and Siour both had French patents on certain metal clarinet features (which wouldn't protect within the USA).

Who in the USA made metal clarinets before 1925? Follow that line of reasoning.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on November 09, 2017, 07:05:44 AM
Recently, an orphaned top joint from a Model 1544 Albert System Harry Pedler came to me in good mechanical order.  I figured it would make a good "convertable" for my Diamond Logo Model 152, and having played it on the 152, I see it might, though I've not checked intonation, and it needs a repad and regulation.  Time will tell, though I have my doubts as to its true viability for use with the 152 for reasons detailed below.

Interestingly, it HAS a serial number:
                           
                           3762

This adds serious traction to the idea that Harry Pedler began serialization on his HR soprano line prior to his departure from MBIC.  It admittedly may offer little else, but it is HIS keywork, as the common keys appear to be fully interchangeable and crafted by the same hands.

Could this have been a leftover parts-bin clarinet cobbled together after Mr. PEDLER'S departure, and stamped later on?  Certainly--though I wouldn't personally take that wager, given presently available knowledge.

I have, however, never seen any MBIC-keyed Albert clarinets, and do not know of any that exist.  Further, and most importantly, I believe, is the placement of the tone holes relative to their placement on the top joint of my model 152.  While holes are bored identically, relative to one another, the 1544 top joint is a full 5/32" (4mm) shorter than the 152, and the 152 clarinet uses a rather long 67.5mm barrel.  In order for this joint to work with the 152, I would also need to procure a 71.5mm barrel, pull out on the barrel, find a very long facing MP, or combine some of the above techniques in order to preserve intonation.

At the least, it provides further food for thought in what appears to be a stagnant effort to unveil an infallible timeline.


Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on November 09, 2017, 07:59:19 PM
Here are a few snaps of the Albert system model 152 and the 1544 top joints.  I attacked the top joint 1544 tonite, and am taking my time polishing the keys.  Keys on both clarinets are unplated solid nickel silver.  I believe them to be forged.  They are delicate looking, but solid and sufficiently rigid.  They bend well by hand, with slow, firm control.
The pads on the 1544 (replacements) are fish skin pads, whilst the 152 has its original leather pads. 
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on November 09, 2017, 08:01:06 PM
More snaps:
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on November 09, 2017, 08:13:58 PM
The main difference between the two is in the "action" of the keys, and the placement of the leaf springs, (note the placement of the screw holes [dark circles])that 100 years later, still retain nearly all of their "bounce". 
Simply incredible.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Lisa on November 09, 2017, 08:57:59 PM
Great pics, thanks for sharing!  And what an interesting project, keep us posted.
Lisa
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on December 04, 2017, 08:38:17 PM
The 1544 top joint is all but finished, and I'm quite pleased with the renovation.  Pads seal well, keywork is bright without being artificial or swirled, and the joint is clean and playable.  I have not checked intonation yet, but expect it to be as previously anticipated. I'll add underside key regulation corks, as I play it a bit.
Here are a few snaps:

Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Lisa on December 08, 2017, 09:13:48 PM
Those keys turned out beautiful!  shiny, but a mellow shine, if that makes any sense.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on December 09, 2017, 11:57:26 AM
Thanks.
I don't like to over-polish keys.  Complete debris removal and a uniform, natural look is my primary objective.

Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: philpedler on December 09, 2017, 01:05:01 PM
Wow! I am impressed by this wonderful contribution to clarinet manufacturing history!
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: 350 Rocket on December 20, 2017, 07:13:36 PM
I've started the overhaul process on my Grenolite. Note the matching stampings on the upper joint and barrel but the pennant logo on the bell. I've also seen at least one that had the pennant on the upper joint. The barrel on mine is glossy, "modern"-looking plastic. The main body joints are slightly less so, while the bell has an almost satin-ish look to it, kind of like a '50s plastic Normandy.

If anyone has any specific questions, ask. Overall, the keywork seems sturdier and much more generously plated than that of either my late '30s Premier or my late '40s Ebonite.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Lisa on December 20, 2017, 07:26:27 PM
It looks very nice!  What are the bore sizes on the upper joint?  Is it a straight bore?
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: 350 Rocket on December 20, 2017, 07:32:58 PM
Straight bore, measuring at .585".
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on January 04, 2018, 04:41:01 PM
Rocket,
I do not own any Pennant Gren-O-Lite Pedlers yet, but I'm interested to see how this one of yours comes along.  It appears you may have your work cut out for you regarding that lower joint tenon.
It appears that the Pennant was the final model made by MBIC, bearing the Pedler name.  Have you been able to determine (or take an educated guess on) the composition of these?  They appear neither to be exclusively hard rubber or resonite, but perhaps a combination of the two?  Babbitt makes 50/50 formulas, and I have to assume other manufacturers experimented with various polymer/rubber hybrids, as well.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: 350 Rocket on January 04, 2018, 07:47:45 PM
It appears that the Pennant was the final model made by MBIC, bearing the Pedler name.  Have you been able to determine (or take an educated guess on) the composition of these?  They appear neither to be exclusively hard rubber or resonite, but perhaps a combination of the two?  Babbitt makes 50/50 formulas, and I have to assume other manufacturers experimented with various polymer/rubber hybrids, as well.
I did my usual degreaser soak to clean the body and there was no discoloration at all. The upper joint has a very distinct seam on top tenon where the two halves of the mold met. There's some slight chipping/flaking around the serial number stampings and the leaf spring channels which also indicates plastic. It looks very much like the same kind of phenolic resin you'd find in a plastic Normandy or Bundy of the era. No hard rubber-like smell that I can detect.

I've only found three and a half Grenolites for sale in total. I was lucky to win the auction on this one.

The others were:
G1579   not verified in photo
G1799   Grenolite/Pennant   Pennant on upper joint, Grenolite on barrel
G1873   Grenolite   upper joint only

And then there's the Pennant with a higher serial number posted earlier in this thread.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on January 04, 2018, 08:01:07 PM
Thank you for the additional serial numbers.  It would appear there are very few Grenolites in circulation.  I have seen only the occasional one come across the scales.

Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on January 06, 2018, 09:22:57 AM
Sadly, we've come no further in getting date stakes or unravelling the obscurity surrounding HP serial numbers, but I thought I would take a different angle tonite, and discuss the 6 different prefix letters that accompany most Pedler serial numbers.

I have seen P, E, N, W, A and G.  The metal clarinets do not have a prefix, ever, that I've seen, and I own a genuine Harry Pedler Albert System top joint made of hard rubber with no prefix (3762), further lending credance to Rocket's theory that the serialization process began while Harry Pedler still held the reins.

P designates "Premier", as best I can tell, and only adorns professional keyed models in various formats, many of which were stamped Premier.
E designates "Ebonite", and is only ever found on hard rubber models (some of which were professional models).
N is still undesignated, and we only have one confirmed example:  N24803
W probably designates "wood", as it only adorns wooden Pedlers (some of which were also professional models).
A is still unofficially designated,  but has only been found on wooden "American" models, to date.  There were also many hard rubber (ebonite) "American" models, but these all have the E prefix.  At this point, I draw the conclusion that an "A" prefix designates a wooden "American".
G designates Gren-O-Lite models.

We now have over 100 recorded entries on the serial number list, among which are a handful of non-serialized clarinets, and I'd like to make an observation on production levels.
If you add the highest recorded serial numbers for each prefix, to date, including the metal clarinets with non-prefix numbers, you arrive at a  number of 163,389.  This does not include non-prefixed wood and hard rubber clarinets--of which, both exist, albeit in small numbers.

In March of 1930, just prior to Harry Pedler selling his stake in the company to MBIC, it was reported that his shop could manufacture 600 clarinets per month.  This was the pinnacle of production, and I do not believe MBIC continued to make Pedler clarinets in quite these numbers.  If we assume (correctly, or not) that the serialization of Harry Pedler Clarinets began in 1928, and we know for a fact that the last Pedler clarinet was made in 1956, that's 29 production years with serialization, for an average of 5634 clarinets per year, of all designations, IF, AND ONLY IF (and that's a big "if") serialization began at 1 for each designation.  And this does not take into consideration the stencil brands Harry Pedler made clarinets for at various points.  He certainly did not make the stencils in his basement, so these ate into production time, as well.  Perhaps the stencils account for the missing production figures?

Several of these models were manufactured concurrently, which makes the dating process all the more difficult.  I am also not certain if there was a set, methodological approach applied to the S/N process across the spectrum.

I am reasonably confident in some dating techniques based upon subtle differences in keywork that I will not share until I can present iron-clad data, but I believe the hard rubber "E" line had reached 13K and the Grenadilla "W" line had reached 11K, by no later than 1936-1937, and perhaps as early as 1935.  Take that with with a grain of salt, if you like.  It's the safest bet, until it can be substantiated or cleanly refuted. 

A few months ago, I missed out on a very unusual Harry Pedler brochure that had some extremely special data within. I kick myself for not making its procurement an absolute priority, and will be on the lookout for another, of course.

Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: 350 Rocket on January 07, 2018, 08:26:37 PM
Is it possible that the "N" serial is somehow aberrant? With such a high number it seems unlikely that there's 25,000 clarinets out there so prefixed and only one would surface compared with other Pedlers.

Your conclusions on the others mirror my own.

and we know for a fact that the last Pedler clarinet was made in 1956
This is a piece of information I've been searching for for some time. What's the source?

If it helps, here's the starting and ending serials for every Pedler model I've recorded.

Metal
"Made by Harry Pedler & Co." professional model: 2847, 10075
"Made by Harry Pedler & Co." bass: 11490
Premiere : 3888, 15704
American, "Harry Pedler & Co.": 10728, 15711
American, art-deco "bundle of wheat" engraving (model 167): 22924, 23603
400: 13734
Precision Hand Made: 13935
Paramount: 15437, 15966
Hoosier: 19316, 44267
Student: 22741, 30699
Custombuilt metal clarinet: 31065, 48431
Custombuilt metal bass: 31964
Custombuilt metal alto: 45119
No model, plain block script: 48356, 51897

"A" serials
American: A1110, A3677

Ebonite
No model marking: E4891, E36606
Hoosier: E1430, E12418
Custombuilt bass: E3305, E13982
American: E17014, E17185

Grenolite
G1077, G1873

Premier
Premier: P2437, P8760
Special: P4338
No model marked: P12885, P19356

Wood
No model marked: W105, W11130
Custombuilt bass: W2549, W19506
Custombuilt alto: W6637
Pennant: W3290

I separate the metal American models because the art-deco engraving lacks "Harry Pedler & Co." However, the guarantee card for 23603 still has that name. It's plausible that after the rights to the name transferred from Martin to Harry Pedler, Martin was still using up the old stationery. The wood American model has a similar change but I've seen too few examples.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on January 08, 2018, 04:33:47 AM
Fascinating post, Rocket.  Thanks for compiling all of that extremely valuable information.
I look forward to analyzing and absorbing it.

I believe you will find the following public domain information useful:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/11720385
The author is perhaps the preeminent Elkhart historian, having compiled more factual data on Elkhart than any other source I have come in contact with, to date.

Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Sy.Flightdeck on February 17, 2018, 10:53:12 AM
POLK'S  ELKHART CITY DIRECTORY 1922 (R. L. POLK & CO., Publishers) reveals the following information.

Harry Pedler  & Co Inc.
Band Instrument Manufacturers
#430 Baldwin, Elkhart Indiana
Incorporated 1919
Capital $10,000
Harry W. Pedler (Pres.) 1249 Garden Blvd. N. Elkhart Indiana
Harry W. Pedler jr. (V-Pres.)
Margaret E. Pedler secretary & Treasurer
Employees living in Elkhart:
Geneva Boyland - finisher
George E. Cook - mouthpiece maker
Bessie Cristman - finisher
Marjorie Cristman - finisher
Raymond E. Crowl - key maker
George Eberline - screw machine operator
Fred H. Fuller - drill press operator
Hugh A. Hamilton - helper

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Harry Walter Pedler  b.21 Jan 1872 at Bethnal Green, London, England. d. 25 Sep 1950 in Elkhart, Indiana, USA. Interred at Rice Cemetery.
Father:  Gorge Joseph Pedler (alternate Pidler) father's birthplace:England
Mother's Birthplace:   England
wife: Maria Louisa Hughes, born abt 1873 in Cardigan, Wales
married on 4 Apr 1896 in St Alphege, Greenwich, England
Children: 7
Margaret Annie Pedler b.1887
John Edward Pedler   b.1888
Harry Walter Pedler Jr.  b.1900
Katie M Pedler   b.1906
Thomas Pedler   b.1909
Sidney Pedler   b.1910
Donald L Pedler b.1917

British Military records reflect a Pvt Harry Pedler, Royal Army Serv. Corps sn SS/15667 and Labour Corps sn 305201 who served in France from 12/09/1915.

Arrived Southampton, England on 4 Jul 1920 aboard the Canadian Pacific S.S Grampian out of Montréal, Québec, Canada
Arrived Montréal, Québec, Canada on 22 Aug 1920 aboard the  S.S Scandinavian out of Antwerp, Belgium

in 1922 Harry and Louisa lived at 1249 N Garden Elkhart, Indiana, USA. He was President of his Band Instrument. Co.

Departed the U.S the U.K on 15 Aug 1925 aboard the Cunard S.S Franconia out of New York
Arrived back from the U.K on 24 Aug 1925 aboard the Cunard S.S Franconia out of Liverpool with wife Louisa and son Donald from a visit with his sister at 339 High Rd, London.

Arrived Liverpool, England on 8 Jun 1931 aboard the Cunard White Star S.S Laconia out of New York.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Harry Walter Pedler jr. b. 28 Sep 1899 in London, England to Harry Walter Pedler  & Louisa Hughes. d. 23 Dec 1983 in Elkhart, Indiana, USA.
Wife: Helen Courante Lounsberry b. 22 Mar 1900 in Elkhart, Indiana
Wife's Father:   Cassius Morton Lounsberry
Wife's Mother:   Mary Hough
Married to Helen Courante Lounsberry on 29 May 1926 in Elkhart, Indiana, USA
Son: Harry Walter Pedler 3rd b.1 Jun 1928 in Elkhart, Indiana, USA, d.3 Jun 1928 in Elkhart, Indiana, USA

in 1928 Harry and Helen lived at 316 E Crawford Elkhart, Indiana, USA - he was Vice President of his father's Band Instrument. Co.

in 1930 Harry and Helen lived at 316 E Crawford Elkhart, Indiana, USA - he was Sales Manager of his father's Band Instrument. Co.

in 1933 Harry and Helen lived at 1227 S Central ave. Glendale, Los Angeles, California, USA where he was a Music Instructor/Representative

in 1934 Harry and Helen lived at 1227 S Central ave. Glendale, Los Angeles, California, USA where he was a Music Instructor/Representative

A "Harry W Pedler" with a birth date of 1 Jan 1940 is also reflected as living at #2100 E Bristol St # 13i, Elkhart, Indiana.


Harry Pedler had some interesting ideas - many of which appear to have been incorporated by other manufacturers - most likely as a result of his not obtaining US patent rights to them. (I own a "Pertin" silver clarinet ("German Silver" base metal, plated with sterling and with a gold washed bell) that is identical to a Pedler in every detail except the name engraved on the bell)

From the list of employees Pedler employed in the early days it is unlikely that he manufactured the entire clarinet (wood or metal) from scratch, but probably sub-contracted some of the work out to other band-instrument makers around the area. 

His very early metal models are built more along the lines of a flute (with keyword being made separately and then soldered on) and I suspect that the body tubes were made originally as flute tubes, then flared. After the flaring the tube where the bell attaches, the tone holes were added by soldering them on individually before drilling the centres out as the tube material is too thick to draw.

This solder-on tone-hole process produces a very nice sounding flute.
Having a thick walled metal instrument means it is less susceptible to tonal shift due to heating of the metal tube once warmed up.

The thicker tone holes also allow for a good seating on the pad either by chamfering or rounding the edges and as the entire instrument is "Sturdily built" it is robust and less likely to get damaged than an instrument with thinner walls and thin tone holes.

The use of a bright white formulation of German Silver, a hard nickel alloy that doesn't actually contain any silver, resulted in a metal with a very unique harmonic. I own an old 2 litre chalice - part of a Catholic Church service set - made of 4 lbs "German Silver" that rings like a bell when the rim is struck and resonates for a minute or more like a tuning fork!

You assemble a "German Silver" instrument and also make repairs to it using a solder made from the same German silver - and when the instrument is buffed / polished you cannot see any solder joint and the instrument itself it is mistaken for sterling silver by everyone who doesn't know the base material.  German silver has a very high melting point and to anyone trying to repair one who is ignorant of what the instrument is made of it would really give them grief !

Plating was and is still done to change the harmonic / resonance of the inner tube - and so the whole thing would get plated. Professional models would not all have been plated, but most were - it depended upon the option the artist was willing to pay for. 

Usually the "Gold wash Bell" meant only the inside of the bell was gold plated, again this was for sound quality (but also to show off )

Considering that the best of the "Silver" Clarinets of the day cost as much as or more than a car, you could say they were the equivalent of a hand-made instrument built today costing $15K-$30K or more before embellishment!

Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Sy.Flightdeck on February 17, 2018, 04:27:51 PM
 just took delivery of a Harry Pedler “wonder tone” clarinet - the serial number for this instrument is 3384.

 this instrument appears to be made of  brass however it may also be made of nickel silver

 the bell is sulver plated brass

 the construction of this instrument is very similar to that of a flute in that it uses key work preassembled and then soldered to the main body tube of the clarinet

 The tone holes are alse pre-made and then soldered to the body of the clarinet.

the key work the actual keys themselves appear to be made from nickel silver but do not appear to be plated as they are not black and do not show the characteristic black tarnish of silver key or silver instrument
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on February 19, 2018, 11:20:41 AM
Here is the seldom seen Harry Pedler "Diamond Logo".  I believe it to be among his first, if not the very first used by Harry Pedler/The Pedler Co. 

This logo was photographed from a Model 152 Albert System with a wrap register key, Circa 1921-1922, during the firm's brief affiliation with the distribution company Kesselman-O'Driscoll, Co., in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on February 19, 2018, 07:09:35 PM
Excellent sleuthing, Sy.  Thanks for that.  Some very interesting information you bring to the table there.

I think we can easily dispel the notion of "our" Harry Pedler Sr. being the Private Harry Pedler listed as serving in France in 1915 in the Royal Army Service Corps, as he'd have been 43 years old by then, and few countries, so early into a war are desperate enough to enlist middle aged men.  Both first and surnames were (are?) Rather common in England, which adds to the ambiguity and misascription I'll wager.  Perhaps it was Harry Pedler Jr. who returned to the service of the King in late 1915, though he'd only have been 16 years old, and perhaps no longer bound to service as an expat.  Curious. 

The travel data you provide seems legitimate, (though I know of no ships capable of crossing the Atlantic twice in 9 days at that time, and it certainly would have made for an abbreviated visit, in any event, but these events often get mis-recorded) and shows he DID return to England--further subtantiated by the correct mention of his wife Louisa and youngest son, Donald.

Margaret Annie and John Edward Pedler are mis-recorded as being his children.  The Elkhart Truth (26 September 1950:  Harry Walter Pedler Sr. obituary) mentions Harry Junior as his eldest child, and a suspect a marriage in 1896 between HWP Sr. and Louisa Hughes would not have yielded 2 children born 8 and 9 years prior, out of wedlock, to 14 and 15 year old parents, respectively.  So...who were they?  Younger siblings of HWP Sr., perhaps?  Cousins?  The other children listed match what I have, though, and Katie M. Pedler would later become known as Mrs. Hubbard Nelson.

I find it interesting that HWP Jr. would have gone to Glendale, CA in 1933.  He certainly could not have been there long, as he was his father's right-hand man, and they both were reportedly in parnership with Gus Buescher at the time.  Fascinating.

Thanks again for your contributions, Sy.

NOW...please tell us more about this Wonder Tone clarinet you've acquired.  I believe I saw this one come through, or one so labelled, recently.

EDIT:  I found the photos I saved of the Wonder Tone, S/N 3384, which is now yours.  What an exceptional find.  I can only suppose I did not record it as I saw no evidence of the S/N, but as you own it and have verified it, that is more than sufficient.  Where is the S/N located on metal Harry clarinets this early? 
It appears to have been played a lot, and is a valuable piece in the early Pedler puzzle.  Notice the hybrid Gronert AMC/very early Harry Pedler crow's foot.  Pressed to do so, I'd date this to 1920.

Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: windydankoff on February 19, 2018, 09:43:51 PM
Pedler HR SN E20716 sounds AMAZING!

I mentioned to a local workman that I repair clarinets, and a few days later he brought this one by, and I handed him a few 10’s. I recognized the 40’s style case (with bell bulge), and inside was this horn that looks like army surplus. But it has new pads, and plays … WONDERFULLY. I mean this thing sounds dark and sweet, and just right, all up and down. It came with the original MP, which is in good shape, but not sounding good. But once I paired it up with one of my favorite FRANCE 2V (Riffault) pieces, my hair stood up! Nice key feel too. I like the old German-style keys, if that’s how to describe them.

The UJ bore is BIG, 15.0mm near top and bottom (but flares out additional .1mm at each end). The UJ is shorter than modern standard by about 5mm, and the barrel is 62mm.

So what’s up with these things? Are all this kind of Pedler this good, or did I get lucky? I had slightly newer Pedler HR with modern style keys, and it didn’t sound special (I donated it to the schools).

Regarding the color, it has a certain punk appeal in green, but the barrel is worse, and uneven, so I’m going to try some restoration on it. Some of you have said the best bet is to polish off the old surface, which (for a barrel) I can easily do on the lathe. How it got such a gradient from black at bottom to green on top, I can’t imagine (I can, but I’m waiting for others to chime in).

Can someone estimate the year?

Who's the Imperial Wizard of the Pedler Cult, and where to I apply?
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on February 23, 2018, 05:15:06 AM
E20716 can be dated to late 1947, per the warranty card 350 Rocket shared, provided the hand written date was accurately recorded.  Further photos will will enable better analysis of hardware.
Title: A Diamond In The Rough...
Post by: Windsong on February 23, 2018, 10:24:21 AM
Here is a current example of another, early "diamond-logo" Harry Pedler & Co. Model 1544 Albert.  It seems complete and original, and hosts the correct logo in all pertinant areas, including the original mouthpiece--a very uncommon ensemble.  Note the wrap-around register key; a feature seemingly abandoned prior to the 1924 model year:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Harry-Pedler-Co-Bb-Clarinet-early-1900s-no-serial-Elkhart-Indiana/292459773951?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: windydankoff on February 23, 2018, 12:59:54 PM
Back up a couple messages, returning to my HR horn turned green, I got an almost-fine result polishing a bit of the barrel, doing it on the lathe. I restored the color to be a bit blacker than the UJ -- much nicer than it was. I took off just enough so the logo impression is reduced maybe 40% and still complete.

I started with 600 then 1200 grit paper but little grooves formed in the surface. I think the dust melted together with the (very low) heat, caused little "snowballs" that wore the grooves. Next time I will WET sand it at very low speed, and that won't happen. By the time I finished with steel wool, it was a bit darker -- I had taken more off than I had intended. Such is life when tempted by power tools! But the lathe, with restraint, is a great way to surface barrels and bells, at least.

It would be very tedious to polish the keyed joints to restore the black! Any ideas, let me know. Same for MPs.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: AJW on February 26, 2018, 01:14:25 PM
I have a Pedler Clarinet, serial # E 25919.  It was given to me by my father and has not been played for roughly 60 yrs.  My son is interested in learning to play the Clarinet. I am assuming it will be more financially prudent for me and more convenient for my son to just purchase a new clarinet. Can anyone confirm my suspicions?  I intend to keep my fathers clarinet in our family's possession but I would be interested in having it refurbished in hopes of my son playing it someday.  Can anyone lead me in the right direction?  Curious about what it will likely cost to refurbish and what the value of this clarinet might be?

Thanks in advance for any input you may be willing to share,

AJW
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: windydankoff on February 26, 2018, 02:36:49 PM
Dear AJW,

Old Pedlers of that era have a following to this day. E of the serial number indicates "ebonite" which is hard rubber. It's quite desirable, for durability and tone quality. If you can get it overhauled, it would probably be better cost/benefit vs. buying a mediocre plastic instrument for about the same cost. Overhaul can cost in range of $150 to maybe $300 for a fully aesthetic restoration. Others may have more advice on this.

I have a Pedler SN E20716, close to yours. Date is 1947. With a recent overhaul, it plays wonderfully with good tone and intonation (tuning accuracy). Mine however looks like dark olive drab. Hard rubber sometimes discolors over the decades. A school kid may be a bit embarrassed. If yours looks black, like normal, and if the keys are not much corroded or dark gray, it has great potential besides the sentimental value. Why not have both? The keys can be polished (with some labor). Green body is more troublesome, but there are solutions for that too. And, for $20-25 you can get a decent fabric & foam zipper case from eBay, so you can keep the original case as a momento.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Windsong on March 10, 2018, 09:32:02 AM
I offer the following to those who may have wondered about GEIB cases.  Typically, these were branded on the inside with a medallion affixed to the velour (see photo).  More often than not, these medallions became detached, and you will simply find the circular impression where it once resided, but occasionally, you get lucky.  On "Pedler" branded cases, often, the medallions were not present.  I have some of each.

These cases have the bell flare, and while one can only suppose they were deemed "fashionable" during the 1930s and early 1940s (when they were most prominently used) they are awkward and unstackable (perhaps the objective?) and rock when opened.  These cases are not sturdily wrapped--typically, and the thin cloth is easily worn on high spots.  They are rigid cases, with quality catches and hinges, and do a mediocre job of retaining the clarinet, and keeping components safe, but as they wear, the barrel and mouthpiece cavities seem somewhat insufficient in preventing shift.  Like all cases, opening it upside-down can lead to unfortunate consequences, but moreso as these are concerned, due to the aforementioned rocking once unloaded. 
Title: Re: Harry Pedler & Co./The Pedler Co. Thread
Post by: Airflyte on March 14, 2018, 08:12:34 PM
Cool logo! Nothing like an impressive coat of arms for some clarinet case bling  ;D
Title: Re: Harry Pedler & Co./The Pedler Co. Thread
Post by: zigzigy7 on March 30, 2018, 08:09:04 PM
whether or not stencils are to be counted is up to you but I have a metal carl fischer stencil clarinet that is undoubtedly made by peddler based on the ligature and thumb saddle and is a premiere model as it's C#/G# trill is identical to other's ive seen in that the post runs from the Eb sliver key to the B/F# tone hole and the crow's foot is the same as described earlier in the thread, a long bar instead of the traditional design. sn#8568
Title: Re: Harry Pedler & Co./The Pedler Co. Thread
Post by: Windsong on April 02, 2018, 06:49:42 PM
Thank you for your insights and pictorial contributions, Zigzigy.

There were a small number of brands that Harry Pedler (and William Gronert) made clarinets for, or made with alternate stampings, especially during the early years.  Some were stencils and some, simply side projects.  The line between the two is fine, but nonetheless distinct.

Thus far, I have personally documented:
Frank Holton (19-teens and 1920s--especially the Albert system clarinets)
Manhattan (19-teens and 1920s)
La Premiere Francaise (believed all)

I would love to see smaller photos (once clicked upon, and side by side, if possible) of a Carl Fischer and a similarly-keyed Harry Pedler/Pedler Co.

I tend to think Fischer had their own serial number system, but perhaps Harry Pedler made the clarinets in his own sequence, and left some unbranded so they could be embellished with the seller's insignia.  I have chosen not to include stencil serials at this time due to much uncertainty surrounding serialization, but should we determine at a later date that the serial numbers were awarded by the manufacturer in sequence to normal production, I see no reason why it would not be prudent to include them with notes to distinguish them.

Again, thank you for your contribution.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler & Co./The Pedler Co. Thread
Post by: Windsong on April 08, 2018, 04:35:33 PM
This past week, a warranty card showed up in the most unusual of places;  a case with a Normany "Redotone" clarinet.
It is not dated, unfortunately, but is an interesting piece of Pedler history, nonetheless:
Title: Re: Harry Pedler & Co./The Pedler Co. Thread
Post by: Windsong on April 08, 2018, 04:39:32 PM
I also purchased this bore oil, and while I suspect it is worthless for it's intended purposes 80 years on, it's a valuable piece of Pedler history:

Title: Re: Harry Pedler & Co./The Pedler Co. Thread
Post by: red0v on June 14, 2018, 09:21:02 PM
I was given an American Silver Clarinet after it was found in the attic of a business with a variety of other instruments from the '30s-'40s.  I actually got online to find out how to clean it up if anybody has any advice on that I will take it.  It's got no pads left and is in really rough shape overall, I've just had it "displayed" as is.  It is serial numbered 11116 but if you look at the back of the C key, it is stamped with an 'S'.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/x7jsht5cguyos1g/20180614_234402.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qujtv7w7jgm4gan/20180614_234416.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5nbuspjfyrgyspa/20180614_234435.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qr81e58q0jt89kj/20180614_234444.jpg?dl=0
Title: Re: Harry Pedler & Co./The Pedler Co. Thread
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on June 14, 2018, 11:08:48 PM
The majority of metal clarinets are really only good for display these days. Occassionally a jazz artist will need one for a gig or for a recording session, but common use is pretty low.

I kind of like the patina it has. You could silver polish it to a mirror shine, but that takes forever, and kills the antique character of it.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler & Co./The Pedler Co. Thread
Post by: windydankoff on June 15, 2018, 04:55:21 PM
After disassembly, I would use my electric toothbrush (my old one) with a silver polish cream possibly with a bit of dish soap mixed in, to remove grime and tarnish. I would test it somewhere on the back side, or on some old silver object first.

See our topic "Electric toothbrush cleans and polishes clarinet keys!"
Title: Re: Harry Pedler & Co./The Pedler Co. Thread
Post by: philpedler on June 16, 2018, 02:31:16 PM
Great work, Windsong!

Title: Re: Harry Pedler & Co./The Pedler Co. Thread
Post by: 350 Rocket on June 22, 2018, 04:16:46 PM
Most of the metal Premiere models have an identical stamping on the bell. The earliest one I've seen had a slightly more ornate engraved pattern, but the same nomenclature. The metal Premiere was introduced in February/March 1928.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler & Co./The Pedler Co. Thread
Post by: zms5063 on October 14, 2018, 06:46:48 PM
Add one to the list, W23453... The Pedler Co Elkhart Indiana.... Custombuilt BBb Bass Custombuilt wood. Original Case, no cracks or major dents. Two piece construction with E-flat on bell and extended throat to accommodate automatic double register. Silver plated with engraved bell. Its my recent ebay find. Broken Touchpiece-for lower joint b-natural fork- currently looking for replacement key before having one rebuilt Looking to restore, was quoted $800 + $125 for a rebuilt touchpiece.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
Post by: Djudy on February 16, 2019, 04:53:14 AM


If it helps, here's the starting and ending serials for every Pedler model I've recorded.

Metal
"Made by Harry Pedler & Co." professional model: 2847, 10075
"Made by Harry Pedler & Co." bass: 11490
Premiere : 3888, 15704
American, "Harry Pedler & Co.": 10728, 15711

I have recently acquired the metal Pedler American 10728; is this a Martin company or a Harry Pedler compagny instrument and is it considered a student instrument?  It's apparently in it's original case. No idea on the year however. It's got a stuffy lower register but is nice and full in the upper register, still looking for the right mpc to really see what it can do.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler & Co./The Pedler Co. Thread
Post by: Heavious on July 26, 2019, 06:18:24 PM
RE: N-SERIES
N24803..."The Pedler Co."...17/6 (UNICORN of the bunch.  Mis-recorded, or rarest of the Pedler breed?)[/i][/i]


I have one of the Pedler near-mythical N-series Bb sopranos.
It is serial number N24734

I got it early 1970s from extended family who were seeking a place for it to go to be played. My cousins were into sports so they directed it to our family. I was in 3rd grade at the time and was the only one in my family who could make any noise on it (mom & sister played violin). Thus I became a reed player.
The horn was not close to being new then, and no documents of origin came with it. [I'll have to ask my dad about its arrival route]
This was my main horn until I got an R-13 in 2002.
It was always a pretty solid horn for me. Improved with a better than the stock mouthpiece (a white plastic one that I still have somewhere...)
The Nickel-plated keywork shows plenty of wear.

Always have wondered the age of this horn. And from this history lesson that is still a bit of a mystery... as is the horn itself, apparently.
Title: Re: Harry Pedler & Co./The Pedler Co. Thread
Post by: Heavious on July 26, 2019, 06:20:24 PM
...and the other pictures I took of the horn N24734