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Messages - 350 Rocket

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1
All about Clarinets / Re: The Legend of the Propeller Wood Clarinet
« on: May 15, 2019, 04:33:06 PM »
The model number for them was 68N, and from what I was able to find when I looked into them previously, they were introduced in 1950.

2
All about Clarinets / Re: elkhart clarinet s/n 24276
« on: May 04, 2019, 07:23:59 PM »
Assuming that it's a Buescher-built "Elkhart Band Instrument Co." instrument, it was made around 1939.

3
All about Clarinets / Re: New metal clarinets!
« on: February 12, 2019, 08:48:14 AM »
In what aspect is the "poor quality" of student-level metal clarinets considered to be? Build quality? Tone? Intonation?

Sort of like how modern cheap Chinese plastic clarinets are no good.

Physically they appear to be a perfectly sound clarinet. However, build quality is poor, and quality control is poor. The same is probably the case with the metal clarinets - these were churned out by the hundreds of thousands, and were not made to as near a standard as your typical hand-finished higher-end clarinet.

That puzzles me then... the "cheapest" non-parts-instrument metal clarinet I have is a mid- to late-'50s American Standard, H.N. White's student model. While it's hard to know how "original" something this old is, as it sits now the build quality is generally quite good - superior to most Bundy Resonites. Keywork is plenty sturdy and I can't find any real examples of corner-cutting save for some finishing marks on the keys - which, for a student-level instrument, has no impact on it in my opinion. In terms of playability I'd say you could put it in a school band room amongst Vitos and Bundys and Yamahas and not be at a disadvantage.

However, I once looked at a Cavalier (Conn's budget brand) 92N and found it utterly appalling in terms of quality. It was part of a batch of instruments liquidated by the Minneapolis school district which might've been an indicator of a hard life, but the Silva-Bet and Pedler I bought from that batch had held up respectably over decades of wear.

They built tens of thousands of Cavaliers, so if they really were all that cheaply made then I can see where the reputation comes from given Conn's position at the time.

4
Conn (via Pan-American) also built bass saxophones for Martin, so it's not surprising.

5
All about Clarinets / Re: Continental Colonial clarinet identification
« on: February 02, 2019, 06:13:31 PM »
Continental Colonial instruments were Pan-American (Conn) stencils.

What's the serial number?

6
All about Clarinets / Re: New metal clarinets!
« on: February 02, 2019, 06:10:13 PM »
In what aspect is the "poor quality" of student-level metal clarinets considered to be? Build quality? Tone? Intonation?

7
We now have a pre-serial number list date stake.

Vito Reso-Tone 3 serial number 14445 (model 14) was sold on 9/7/1966 in Lansing Michigan.  Certificate of Warranty, Receipt etc. below.

Watching serial numbers for the past couple years, Vito's are all over the board.  I've seen 4 numbers, 5 numbers, 6 numbers, 4 numbers and a letter (A through J, no I yet),  5 numbers and a letter (so far, only A, only Reso-tone 3's and Stubbins) , and the ever popular letter and 5 numbers.

Thank you! That data point helps confirm my conjecture.

Four numbers and a letter is what I see on the original Vito (and on altos, basses, & contras). Leblanc did use the letter I, but it's only a straight line with no serifs, making it look enough like the numeral 1 that it's not easy to notice unless you're looking for it.

8
Vito serial numbers were "re-set" again relatively recently and given the timing it's very probable that it corresponds to the Kenosha factory being shut down and production moving to Elkhart, which was in 2008. The screen-printed Big V logo appeared in 2004 and continued into Elkhart production.

The 1984 serial reset happened when they switched model numbers from 7112/7114 to 7212/7214 - the latter will have the model number stamped, so they're easy to differentiate.

The difference with 7242 is that it has a .575" bore instead of .584".

9
All about Clarinets / Re: Harry Pedler & Co./The Pedler Co. Thread
« on: June 22, 2018, 04:16:46 PM »
Most of the metal Premiere models have an identical stamping on the bell. The earliest one I've seen had a slightly more ornate engraved pattern, but the same nomenclature. The metal Premiere was introduced in February/March 1928.

10
I suspect what you have is one of the very first Collegiates made after Holton was acquired by Leblanc. Does it say "Frank Holton & Co." or just "Holton" with fancy detailing? I have one of those very early ones plus a couple of the latter.

They built two models, the CL-630 which was the same as the standard Vito, and the CL-633 which was the same as the Vito Reso II (offset trill keys instead of inline).

11
All about Clarinets / Re: Good stuff on ebay
« on: February 28, 2018, 02:54:28 PM »
Thanks for the info.
Do you think the seller is purposefully trying to scam potential buyers? If so, I can report the item to eBay for fraud.
It would be good if others could as well to add fuel to the case.

Well... that's a bit of an issue. The seller is a music store and repair shop that is notorious for building "parts-bin" instruments and then being evasive about their true nature. The likelihood of this being intentionally misrepresented is quite high. But without any legally defensible way to prove it (and even posting their name is fraught with risk) all you can really do is send out the warning for the most flagrant instances, like this one. Besides, I've heard that eBay doesn't pay much heed to reported items.

12
All about Clarinets / Re: Good stuff on ebay
« on: February 27, 2018, 07:36:06 PM »
Thanks for the warning.
Just a thought-did student models often have a low F adjustment screw?
They did - all H.N. White metal Boehm clarinets that I've seen have the regulation screw on the low F.

13
All about Clarinets / Re: Good stuff on ebay
« on: February 27, 2018, 07:04:57 PM »
Scam alert!

I stumbled across this little hack job this evening. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Silver-King-Clarinet-Sterling-Silver-Bell/273035801999

This is a 1950s American Standard student-model clarinet with an earlier Silver King bell grafted on, being passed off as a genuine Silver King.

14
All about Clarinets / Re: Noblet DN SN: 1016
« on: February 16, 2018, 07:18:28 PM »
"DN" isn't a model, just a description of the logo - the superimposed D and N (for Denis Noblet). Leblanc eventually stopped using "D. Noblet" or "DN", and if any letter appeared it was just N. The change probably happened in the mid-'60s. My Noblet 45 is from 1965 and still has the "DN"; the 1966 price list shows the 45's diamond-shaped logo and the "trimmed oval" 40 logo each with the lone "N", and nearly all of the Noblet clarinets I've seen that are newer than mine have that.

That case looks like a Leblanc/Noblet case from the '50s, and given the low serial number and other details yours would seem to be a 1950s instrument. Late 1940s is probably a possibility as well. I don't know for sure, but it's probably a model 40.

15
Is it possible that the "N" serial is somehow aberrant? With such a high number it seems unlikely that there's 25,000 clarinets out there so prefixed and only one would surface compared with other Pedlers.

Your conclusions on the others mirror my own.

and we know for a fact that the last Pedler clarinet was made in 1956
This is a piece of information I've been searching for for some time. What's the source?

If it helps, here's the starting and ending serials for every Pedler model I've recorded.

Metal
"Made by Harry Pedler & Co." professional model: 2847, 10075
"Made by Harry Pedler & Co." bass: 11490
Premiere : 3888, 15704
American, "Harry Pedler & Co.": 10728, 15711
American, art-deco "bundle of wheat" engraving (model 167): 22924, 23603
400: 13734
Precision Hand Made: 13935
Paramount: 15437, 15966
Hoosier: 19316, 44267
Student: 22741, 30699
Custombuilt metal clarinet: 31065, 48431
Custombuilt metal bass: 31964
Custombuilt metal alto: 45119
No model, plain block script: 48356, 51897

"A" serials
American: A1110, A3677

Ebonite
No model marking: E4891, E36606
Hoosier: E1430, E12418
Custombuilt bass: E3305, E13982
American: E17014, E17185

Grenolite
G1077, G1873

Premier
Premier: P2437, P8760
Special: P4338
No model marked: P12885, P19356

Wood
No model marked: W105, W11130
Custombuilt bass: W2549, W19506
Custombuilt alto: W6637
Pennant: W3290

I separate the metal American models because the art-deco engraving lacks "Harry Pedler & Co." However, the guarantee card for 23603 still has that name. It's plausible that after the rights to the name transferred from Martin to Harry Pedler, Martin was still using up the old stationery. The wood American model has a similar change but I've seen too few examples.

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