Author Topic: The Honest Seller Thread  (Read 12662 times)

Offline DaveLeBlanc

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Re: The Honest Seller Thread
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2016, 01:49:32 AM »
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Offline Airflyte

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Re: The Honest Seller Thread
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2016, 08:31:31 AM »
"The Clarinet - in a class of its own"

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Offline Windsong

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Re: The Honest Seller Thread
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2016, 12:53:50 PM »
Do you suppose it was "barely used"  because he bought clarinet music and a clarinet fingering guide, and gave up, out of frustration?
  ;D
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Offline DaveLeBlanc

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Re: The Honest Seller Thread
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2016, 01:46:26 AM »
Do you suppose it was "barely used"  because he bought clarinet music and a clarinet fingering guide, and gave up, out of frustration?
  ;D
Wouldn't be surprised.  That's kind of what would happen to me...
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Offline DaveLeBlanc

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Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: The Honest Seller Thread
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2016, 05:44:40 PM »
"This clarinet was bought in Marseille and only used to prove it. their status is entirely new, default: exact replica manufactured in Korea, ....."

There are famous stories of Stradivari replicas, some of which are in museums and the very knowledgeable cannot tell which is which.

The history of fake musical instruments is a long one, however in the machine age, the question becomes a different one. Certainly a Buffet-Crampon is a corporate machine massed produced instrument. It might be fine tuned by humans at a few points, but these are not recognized individuals beyond their abilities, which are shared by many humans. If an R-13 is a set of specifications and measurements, is a measured replica a fake or just a Korean R13?

Is a German made Conn 424N a fake? Does the contractual arrangement between Conn and Schreiber make these real Conn 424N clarinets? Schreiber certainly didn't build those by their own specifications. And what about the Swedish Levins that were so identical to the C.F. Martin guitars that Martin finally built the company and moved the production of a couple of Martin models to Sweden (that did not last long).

Is something defined by it's intrinsic materials and dimensions or by a logo on it? Are stencils another type of fake? When we have reduced the human artifice involved and an instrument is mostly defined by measurements taken by machines and created by machines, the name on it might best be CNC Lathe, Router & Co.

One of the most disturbing forgeries was a submarine the Soviets built. It was precisely the design of a US submarine that Congress decided not to fund. Someone in the spy agency sold the Soviets the design and the first news the US Navy got of it was when one of the Soviet subs surfaced and a helicopter spotted it. That moment had to be a real eye opener.  ;) The story made Life magazine back in the mid 1980s.
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline Windsong

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Re: The Honest Seller Thread
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2016, 07:01:34 PM »
Good perspectives, Sorcerer. 

So here is what I am thinking:

1) How does the seller know it's fake?
2) What distinguishing characteristics, if any, give it away?
3) If it is fake, how close is it to the original, and if a perfect forgery, how did they get all the components to look and function authentically?  (Surface textures and composition, key density and hue on silver plating, especially, as those are the hardest to fake.  The eye is easily fooled, but the hand is not)
4) If it is a forgery, why haven't Buffet filed suit?
5) If it is a perfect forgery, why would anyone purchase a real one for 4+ times the price? 
6) When is Buffet moving their plant to Korea, or hiring these master forgers to come work in France?  :o
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Offline DaveLeBlanc

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Re: The Honest Seller Thread
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2016, 07:17:12 PM »
Although the logo font is fairly good, it's immediately evident that this is a cheap Chinese-made CSO, made from cheap plastic.  The case looks nice, but I would bet it's super light and flimsy.

I'm actually impressed with the advances they've made in faking technology.  Several years ago, the "A Paris" logo was definitely off, and was immediately noticeable. These days, the font is much closer to the real thing, and could fool an unsuspecting rube.
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Offline Airflyte

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Re: The Honest Seller Thread
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2016, 10:18:52 AM »
It took me a while but now I know the "signature" of this forgery ; http://www.ebay.com/itm/new-BUFFET-Bb12-clarinet-with-in-Beautiful-box-/162199599140?hash=item25c3d97824:g:iioAAOSwuYVWmtWZ

I won't disclose the "tell"(there's actually two) just yet - I want a fellow forum member to find it too!

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Offline DaveLeBlanc

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Re: The Honest Seller Thread
« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2016, 10:49:58 AM »
It took me a while but now I know the "signature" of this forgery ; http://www.ebay.com/itm/new-BUFFET-Bb12-clarinet-with-in-Beautiful-box-/162199599140?hash=item25c3d97824:g:iioAAOSwuYVWmtWZ

I won't disclose the "tell"(there's actually two) just yet - I want a fellow forum member to find it too!
It took me a while but now I know the "signature" of this forgery ; http://www.ebay.com/itm/new-BUFFET-Bb12-clarinet-with-in-Beautiful-box-/162199599140?hash=item25c3d97824:g:iioAAOSwuYVWmtWZ

I won't disclose the "tell"(there's actually two) just yet - I want a fellow forum member to find it too!
The "B 12" designation looks a bit off, but that's all I see.
The yellow foam things I've seen in several other Chinese clarinets, so that might be something.

I can't believe they faked the brochures/literature and even the cork grease!
David Watson of the original The Clarinet Pages

Offline Airflyte

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Re: The Honest Seller Thread
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2016, 11:13:26 AM »
It took me a while but now I know the "signature" of this forgery ; http://www.ebay.com/itm/new-BUFFET-Bb12-clarinet-with-in-Beautiful-box-/162199599140?hash=item25c3d97824:g:iioAAOSwuYVWmtWZ

I won't disclose the "tell"(there's actually two) just yet - I want a fellow forum member to find it too!
It took me a while but now I know the "signature" of this forgery ; http://www.ebay.com/itm/new-BUFFET-Bb12-clarinet-with-in-Beautiful-box-/162199599140?hash=item25c3d97824:g:iioAAOSwuYVWmtWZ

I won't disclose the "tell"(there's actually two) just yet - I want a fellow forum member to find it too!
The "B 12" designation looks a bit off, but that's all I see.
The yellow foam things I've seen in several other Chinese clarinets, so that might be something.

I can't believe they faked the brochures/literature and even the cork grease!

Bingo on the "B 12" font! - also see 2 barrels? That just screams cheap. Oh, and the listing title - notice that it's 'Bb12' not actually 'B12'.

Good call on the yellow foam things too Dave.

These guys sure try hard though - that logo is very close to the real thing.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 11:15:44 AM by Airflyte »
"The Clarinet - in a class of its own"

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Offline Windsong

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"Beyond Unbelievabe", or "Who does this?"
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2016, 07:26:38 AM »
I've seen many an abused clarinet before, but most are the subject of negligance due to ignorance, which, while sad is forgivable, whereas this is just criminal.
The person who wrought havoc upon this poor, rare keyed 4 ring Albert, however, is probably a serial killer:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Most-hated-very-old-wooden-Bb-Clarinet-4rings-for-spateparts/131918277094?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D39218%26meid%3D23c8a4b061a9402ea0b702862947c110%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D131941888101
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 03:50:18 PM by Windsong »
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Offline DaveLeBlanc

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Re: The Honest Seller Thread
« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2017, 10:46:39 PM »
http://www.ebay.com/itm/french-saxophone-/162607554703?hash=item25dc2a608f:g:Ia0AAOSwo~lZelG0

Title: "French Saxophone"
Description: "got this at auction 15 years ago price range was 1500 to 13000"

SOMEHOW I DON'T THINK A NOBLET TENOR SAX WOULD SELL FOR $13 grand
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Offline DaveLeBlanc

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Offline Lisa

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Re: The Honest Seller Thread
« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2017, 08:51:43 PM »
Andybeals asks the question that i too, would like answered.  Am i not a clarinet, and a woodwind?

This guy has the answer.  You may be exquisite, and a clarinet, but really, you’re just a small black tube that should be filibustered in step 3.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Exquisite-E-clarinet-small-black-tube/332459092333?hash=item4d681b296d:g:juEAAOSwFARZxwML
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 09:00:54 PM by Lisa »
Lisa  Upper Michigan

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