Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 

Author Topic: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List  (Read 3965 times)

Offline 350 Rocket

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Karma: +6/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
« Reply #75 on: October 10, 2017, 06:48:06 PM »
As you can see, the actuator arm on the Pedler clarinets is closer to the pad cup arm than it is on the H. N. White apparatus--the primary difference, and seemingly not enough of a "change" to enable it to be considered a separate invention.
Actually, the clarinet in the eBay ad above has been damaged or modified in some manner - the mechanism is out of position. Every other H.N. White metal clarinet I've seen has had the regulation screw closer to the arm, much like the Pedlers. The opposite end of the mechanism is different though, as it sits directly on the F#/C# keycup and lacks the screw to adjust the F#/C# venting that the Pedlers have.

The Silver King was introduced in 1928 or 1929, and the lower-priced models probably at the same time, no later than 1930. I have never seen one without this mechanism.

H.N. White did stencil clarinets, but not many. They built all of their metal clarinets in-house as far as I know.
Posted to the original The Clarinet Pages forum from my Power Macintosh 6100/60 using Netscape Navigator™

Offline Windsong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1069
  • Karma: +25/-1
  • Posted from my A G Bell rotary phone
    • View Profile
Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
« Reply #76 on: October 10, 2017, 07:20:56 PM »
Upon inspection of a couple of others currently for sale, I notice that the mechanism is much closer to the cup arm as you state, and almost identical to Pedler's invention.  The opposite side of the mechanism, as you also mention is free-standing on the Pedlers, and not bearing on the C#/G# cup.  White clarinets are not as sophisticated in that regard, but the design is not enough different to qualify for a different patent, since it's activated identically with the same keywork.
I need to see if I can hunt up a patent filed by Harry Pedler.  If none exists, it may be a fair assumption that the substitution of the crow's foot became a free-for-all for those so inlined and motivated.
The Clarinet Pages forum court jester, and expert bubblegum welder.

Offline Windsong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1069
  • Karma: +25/-1
  • Posted from my A G Bell rotary phone
    • View Profile
Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
« Reply #77 on: October 10, 2017, 08:03:05 PM »
Okay; that didn't take long, but what I found is rather bizarre, indeed.
If one clicks on the link below, and then the patent PDF, it pulls up Harry's patent, filed on 21 May, 1934 and certified on 7 April, 1936.  Why would he wait so long after inventing this "Appliance" to patent it?  I think he may have been fearful that MBIC would sell it out from under him (and perhaps they did).  Was this one of the reasons he and his son had a falling out with MBIC and left abruptly?  Timeline-wise, it certainly is plausible.  There is certainly a grand story here that perhaps none of us will ever know.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2036492.html

Even more bizarre, the first time I clicked on the patent file, it pulled up NOT Harry Pedler's patent, but the Bercioux patent, instead, from 1902.

Explain that!
The Clarinet Pages forum court jester, and expert bubblegum welder.

Offline 350 Rocket

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Karma: +6/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
« Reply #78 on: October 11, 2017, 04:08:45 PM »
But if the Pedlers left in 1931, this would indicate that Harry Pedler was still required to assign his patents to his former company.

And even so, H.N. White was building clarinets with that mechanism before 1930, so if there was any agreement to allow White to use it, it would've been with Mr. Pedler alone.
Posted to the original The Clarinet Pages forum from my Power Macintosh 6100/60 using Netscape Navigator™

Offline Windsong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1069
  • Karma: +25/-1
  • Posted from my A G Bell rotary phone
    • View Profile
Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
« Reply #79 on: October 12, 2017, 05:12:28 PM »
I appreciate your perspective, and perhaps you are right.  I know nothing of patent law, or the legalities of securing a patent post-production and implementation.  My take on it was that things were heating up, so to speak, and he felt that if he did not secure a patent, he would lose the rights to the invention.
The Clarinet Pages forum court jester, and expert bubblegum welder.

Offline Silversorcerer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1363
  • Karma: +29/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
« Reply #80 on: October 13, 2017, 04:39:37 PM »
http://clarinetpages.info/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1003.0;attach=1467;image

If that link works it shows how Penzel Mueller Pruefer approached this particular adjustment, about 1915. It's not visible from the front and it's tiny. True art is the concealment of art?
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline 350 Rocket

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Karma: +6/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
« Reply #81 on: October 13, 2017, 09:01:36 PM »
I appreciate your perspective, and perhaps you are right.  I know nothing of patent law, or the legalities of securing a patent post-production and implementation.  My take on it was that things were heating up, so to speak, and he felt that if he did not secure a patent, he would lose the rights to the invention.
I don't either, but this Bettoney ad might shed light on something:
Posted to the original The Clarinet Pages forum from my Power Macintosh 6100/60 using Netscape Navigator™

Offline Windsong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1069
  • Karma: +25/-1
  • Posted from my A G Bell rotary phone
    • View Profile
Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
« Reply #82 on: October 13, 2017, 09:08:05 PM »
Fascinating.
Because my knowledge of metal clarinets grossly inadequate, I wonder who, in particular, they were pointing the finger at.
The Clarinet Pages forum court jester, and expert bubblegum welder.

Offline Silversorcerer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1363
  • Karma: +29/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
« Reply #83 on: October 14, 2017, 05:26:08 PM »
It probably was not Pedler. The primary Bettoney patent feature is the C# cross key that actuates the Eb ring key, allowing a forked left hand fingering for Eb. It's an easy way to get the best feature of a seven-ring Boehm without all the fuss.

Metal clarinets were made early in the 19th C. In Europe, so who knows who did what first. Chapelain and Siour both had French patents on certain metal clarinet features (which wouldn't protect within the USA).

Who in the USA made metal clarinets before 1925? Follow that line of reasoning.
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline Windsong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1069
  • Karma: +25/-1
  • Posted from my A G Bell rotary phone
    • View Profile
Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
« Reply #84 on: November 09, 2017, 07:05:44 AM »
Recently, an orphaned top joint from a Model 1544 Albert System Harry Pedler came to me in good mechanical order.  I figured it would make a good "convertable" for my Diamond Logo Model 152, and having played it on the 152, I see it might, though I've not checked intonation, and it needs a repad and regulation.  Time will tell, though I have my doubts as to its true viability for use with the 152 for reasons detailed below.

Interestingly, it HAS a serial number:
                           
                           3762

This adds serious traction to the idea that Harry Pedler began serialization on his HR soprano line prior to his departure from MBIC.  It admittedly may offer little else, but it is HIS keywork, as the common keys appear to be fully interchangeable and crafted by the same hands.

Could this have been a leftover parts-bin clarinet cobbled together after Mr. PEDLER'S departure, and stamped later on?  Certainly--though I wouldn't personally take that wager, given presently available knowledge.

I have, however, never seen any MBIC-keyed Albert clarinets, and do not know of any that exist.  Further, and most importantly, I believe, is the placement of the tone holes relative to their placement on the top joint of my model 152.  While holes are bored identically, relative to one another, the 1544 top joint is a full 5/32" (4mm) shorter than the 152, and the 152 clarinet uses a rather long 67.5mm barrel.  In order for this joint to work with the 152, I would also need to procure a 71.5mm barrel, pull out on the barrel, find a very long facing MP, or combine some of the above techniques in order to preserve intonation.

At the least, it provides further food for thought in what appears to be a stagnant effort to unveil an infallible timeline.


The Clarinet Pages forum court jester, and expert bubblegum welder.

Offline Windsong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1069
  • Karma: +25/-1
  • Posted from my A G Bell rotary phone
    • View Profile
Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
« Reply #85 on: November 09, 2017, 07:59:19 PM »
Here are a few snaps of the Albert system model 152 and the 1544 top joints.  I attacked the top joint 1544 tonite, and am taking my time polishing the keys.  Keys on both clarinets are unplated solid nickel silver.  I believe them to be forged.  They are delicate looking, but solid and sufficiently rigid.  They bend well by hand, with slow, firm control.
The pads on the 1544 (replacements) are fish skin pads, whilst the 152 has its original leather pads. 
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 02:29:51 PM by Windsong »
The Clarinet Pages forum court jester, and expert bubblegum welder.

Offline Windsong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1069
  • Karma: +25/-1
  • Posted from my A G Bell rotary phone
    • View Profile
Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
« Reply #86 on: November 09, 2017, 08:01:06 PM »
More snaps:
The Clarinet Pages forum court jester, and expert bubblegum welder.

Offline Windsong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1069
  • Karma: +25/-1
  • Posted from my A G Bell rotary phone
    • View Profile
Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
« Reply #87 on: November 09, 2017, 08:13:58 PM »
The main difference between the two is in the "action" of the keys, and the placement of the leaf springs, (note the placement of the screw holes [dark circles])that 100 years later, still retain nearly all of their "bounce". 
Simply incredible.
The Clarinet Pages forum court jester, and expert bubblegum welder.

Offline Lisa

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
  • Karma: +28/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
« Reply #88 on: November 09, 2017, 08:57:59 PM »
Great pics, thanks for sharing!  And what an interesting project, keep us posted.
Lisa
Lisa  Upper Michigan

Everything will B(b)-Fine, at The Clarinet Pages

https://www.flickr.com/photos/148152785@N03/albums  My musical instrument pics, and others!

Offline Windsong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1069
  • Karma: +25/-1
  • Posted from my A G Bell rotary phone
    • View Profile
Re: Harry Pedler and Co./The Pedler Co. Serial Number List
« Reply #89 on: December 04, 2017, 08:38:17 PM »
The 1544 top joint is all but finished, and I'm quite pleased with the renovation.  Pads seal well, keywork is bright without being artificial or swirled, and the joint is clean and playable.  I have not checked intonation yet, but expect it to be as previously anticipated. I'll add underside key regulation corks, as I play it a bit.
Here are a few snaps:

The Clarinet Pages forum court jester, and expert bubblegum welder.