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Author Topic: Classical Clarinet, 6 keys  (Read 866 times)

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Classical Clarinet, 6 keys
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2017, 01:55:24 PM »
I understand the apprehension in taking the pins out.  The bore oil will swell the wood for a while, so you might consider letting the wood reach its "new norm" before attempting to remove them, though perhaps wiggling ever so slightly with the oil saturating might at least prepare them for removal.
Bore oil swells wood? Not that I know of. Is that something you have observed? My thought was that the relative humidity difference between Phoenix and Atlanta might cause the wood to swell, and a generous and likely long overdue oil treatment would slow that down.

As usual, if you make a claim you'll have to show me, not tell me ;);- like this guy:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_oJl2y-Nso0

I did remove the key pins in the upper joint yesterday. On one of them the folded over portion of the pin had been broken off in a failed attempt at twisting it out, who knows when. It seems the preferred strategy is to push from the other end. I used a toothpick. The pins slipped right out.

The springs are heavy brass and all the pads are leather, single layer and these almost fell off at the slightest touch. I haven't identified the adhesive, but I will use shellac. It might have been sealing wax;- it's bright red whatever it is.

There are no spring bearings and the wood is worn where the springs contacted it. I'm thinking I might put some brass bearings in. If it gets much future play, those will help more than hurt.

Prestini supplies pad leather in a square big enough to do all the pads. Some wii need a cork backing to be thick enough for a couple of the lower joint pads and I have made pads that way for recorders and that whisper key for the bassoon.

I searched the clarinets in MIMO and did not find any that match in more than one or two details. I have found a fellow in England that makes reproduction mouthpieces, so that's a plus.

The way that lower joint swells out gradually for the blocks and R4 tone hole is something rare. I think if we find another like tha we probably will have the maker.
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Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Classical Clarinet, 6 keys
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2017, 03:19:20 PM »
This one has me obsessing a little bit. Help me out?

I went through this collection http://www.mfa.org/node/9486
(way cool), looked at all the 1800s in MIMO, and no real matches.

Anyway, after looking at all of those, I am leaning toward a more simple bell design, almost a Mazzeo shape but with an understated bottom ring and upper ring to match the joint ring, something like on this one (Clemens):http://www.mfa.org/node/9486

And on the wood color, (imagine it with a dark mouthpiece), should the bell contrast or match the joints?  ???
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Offline Silversorcerer

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Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Classical Clarinet, 6 keys
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2017, 05:09:52 PM »
This one by Bilton has similar keys, springs, barrel and ivory ring details:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/263256987344?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649
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Offline Lisa

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Re: Classical Clarinet, 6 keys
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2017, 08:07:48 PM »
I like the one that said mazzeo, just a cone shape with no lip around the bottom, and didnít seem to have a bottom ring at all, but the wood contrasted the rings.  I know, no help at all, just saying what i found attractive.  ::)
Lisa
Lisa  Upper Michigan

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Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Classical Clarinet, 6 keys
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2017, 01:22:21 PM »
The style of the Mazzeo bells are actually retro and reflect the earlier more conical bell flare that was common on some clarinets from the late 18th / early 19th C. period. Given the gentle swell of the lower joint without the big "knob" in the key mount area, I think that the conical bell will look best, so that's what I am going for.

The similarities in the barrel shape and rings to the Bilton, as well as the Ashton, definitely suggest England or New England. I'm going to search for more Bilton examples. At that time there were far more makers, but the methods were still hand work, so there are far fewer than made just 50 years later. It's much easier to determine the makers when the instruments come from large factories.

What stands out on this mystery is the shape of the lower joint. If we find a marked one that matches that shape, I think that might get us very close to the maker.

Quite curiously, when I lay the mystery 6-key next to a Martin Freres Grand Prix, circa 1910, the tone holes align nearly perfectly. At the barrel and above, the dimensions are quite different. The similar placement of the toneholes from the register port all the way to the bottom E certainly indicates these are built to about the same pitch. The Grand Prix is not marked LP, so it is likely A=440.

What I have learned from reading is that A=440 was a popular pitch standard around the end of the 18th C., but there were no real "standards" even in one country until France capped A at 435Hz in 1859.

This clarinet will likely be playable at modern pitch.
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Offline Lisa

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Re: Classical Clarinet, 6 keys
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2017, 02:49:46 PM »

This clarinet will likely be playable at modern pitch.
That is really great!  It would be really neat to pull out a clarinet looking like that, and be able to play with modern instruments. I know is be totally shocked if I saw that happen.
Lisa  Upper Michigan

Everything will B(b)-Fine, at The Clarinet Pages

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Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Classical Clarinet, 6 keys
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2017, 07:34:51 PM »
I found several in this pile that look close in style and construction:

http://www.music-treasures.com/anticlar.htm

This is a great resource because they list dimensions that I can use to figure out the ballpark sizes of the parts I need, as well as the style bell that will be a good match.
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Offline Lisa

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Re: Classical Clarinet, 6 keys
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2017, 08:53:03 PM »
I think lots of people, even those that are familiar with wind instruments might assume itís some sort of antique style of recorder.  Thatís what they remind me of, more so than a clarinet.  Iím sure in person I would recognize the size of them as not being a Tenor recorder, but itís so ingrained that clarinets are black or very dark, that when i look at them, my brain keeps saying giant recorder.  The larger models have simple keys on them, and even small ones can, as I have a soprano recorder with a key on it, a Herwiga.
Anyhow, once again, Iíve enjoyed strolling through the link you posted.  Clarinets are amazing creatures.
Lisa  Upper Michigan

Everything will B(b)-Fine, at The Clarinet Pages

https://www.flickr.com/photos/148152785@N03/albums  My musical instrument pics, and others!

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Classical Clarinet, 6 keys
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2017, 10:55:18 AM »
I think lots of people, even those that are familiar with wind instruments might assume itís some sort of antique style of recorder.  Thatís what they remind me of, more so than a clarinet.  Iím sure in person I would recognize the size of them as not being a Tenor recorder, but itís so ingrained that clarinets are black or very dark, that when i look at them, my brain keeps saying giant recorder.  The larger models have simple keys on them, and even small ones can, as I have a soprano recorder with a key on it, a Herwiga.
Anyhow, once again, Iíve enjoyed strolling through the link you posted.  Clarinets are amazing creatures.

I'm also a recorder fan, and I also play Cherokee flutes, so we have more in common than clarinets. The fewer keys, the more like a recorder. Recorder experience has been helpful in getting used to my C simple system, and this 6 key is going to be even closer.

After reading Albert Rice, I think I will have the mouthpiece made so I can play it reed on top. I've been experimenting with that method and my impression is that the tone is different and control with my upper lip might be better;- could be a side effect of playing trumpet as often as clarinet.
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Offline mechanic

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Re: Classical Clarinet, 6 keys
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2017, 03:01:42 PM »
The bell tenon is 25 mm. The body is longer than a Bb LP by a small amount. I think this A=430. The bells on these are usually pretty large at the bottom. That rough one might have potential if the socket isn't huge.

I missed your reply when the thread switched over to page 2.

  The rough, unfinished bell has a socket diameter of 21.25mm, depth 17.45mm and an outside diameter of 33.45 mm. The bore opening from socket to bell is 16.8mm.   The overall length of the bell is 116.5 mm.  All give or take 10th's.
The wall thickness down at the bell is over 12mm.  The transition from socket to bell is pretty rough, I tried to get it pictured.

I'd say there is a fair amount of extra wood still on it.  It weighs in at 165 grams.  Of other wood bells I've weighed, a B&H Edgware comes in at 110 grams and an M. Lacroix at 135 grams.  Both of those have socket and bell rings. 
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Offline Dibbs

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Re: Classical Clarinet, 6 keys
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2017, 01:51:55 AM »
I think lots of people, even those that are familiar with wind instruments might assume itís some sort of antique style of recorder.  Thatís what they remind me of, more so than a clarinet.  Iím sure in person I would recognize the size of them as not being a Tenor recorder, but itís so ingrained that clarinets are black or very dark, that when i look at them, my brain keeps saying giant recorder.  The larger models have simple keys on them, and even small ones can, as I have a soprano recorder with a key on it, a Herwiga.
Anyhow, once again, Iíve enjoyed strolling through the link you posted.  Clarinets are amazing creatures.

I'm also a recorder fan, and I also play Cherokee flutes, so we have more in common than clarinets. The fewer keys, the more like a recorder. Recorder experience has been helpful in getting used to my C simple system, and this 6 key is going to be even closer.

After reading Albert Rice, I think I will have the mouthpiece made so I can play it reed on top. I've been experimenting with that method and my impression is that the tone is different and control with my upper lip might be better;- could be a side effect of playing trumpet as often as clarinet.

Wow!  Reed on top.  It hurt too much when I tried it.  If you're going for the full authentic experience you could consider experimenting with throat and diaphragm articulation too.

Offline Dibbs

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Re: Classical Clarinet, 6 keys
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2017, 04:18:22 AM »
There's a lot of good information on playing early clarinets here:

https://libres.uncg.edu/ir/uncg/f/umi-uncg-1010.pdf


Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Classical Clarinet, 6 keys
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2017, 02:33:13 PM »
Rice wrote about throat and diaphragm articulation, which are both possible with top or bottom reed. Iíve been doing the ď HhahĒ for some time without thinking too much about it. If you want to laugh, itís almost automatic.

Getting a T start in top position is not automatic. Itís not altogether impossible, just tricky.

What struck me reading Rice, is that it took many years for reed on top to become dominant, and it may well be that every player should at least try both. One of the two lips will probably have more success, but not necessarily the same lip on every player. Our mouths, lips, and jaws differ.
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original ďThe Clarinet Pages" forum