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Author Topic: Barrel Tapers  (Read 96 times)

Offline shmuelyosef

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Barrel Tapers
« on: September 26, 2018, 04:14:35 PM »
I was looking at some information and I noticed that at Phil's site, his barrel taper measurements are only three points. Since I'm an ex-engineer and measurement geek (not just musical instruments) I have been exploring barrel tapers and trying to understand why I like the ones I do on various clarinet/mouthpiece combinations, so that I can be more deterministic. I recently purchased a Ferree's taper reamer and have been playing around with some crude barrels I'm turning on my lathe out of delrin and ABS. I have attached a sample output of some of the measurements I have made and the measuring setup I am using.
Soprano: Yanagisawa (Yani) S990
Alto: Yani A880, A990, Yamaha YAS82ZS
Tenor: Yani T880, T992, Yamaha YTS82ZS
Baritone: Yani B991, Selmer Mk VI
Flute: Yamaha J40, Muramatsu EX
Clarinet: Selmer CT, Series 9
BC: Yamaha 221mkii
Piano: Mason & Hamlin Model A, Fender Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I, Nord Electro 6HP

Offline windydankoff

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Re: Barrel Tapers
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2018, 01:23:19 PM »
Thank you for joining us, and sharing this information, Shmuel! I think the best of us are mystified by the inner life of barrels and mouthpieces. Do you have some discoveries to share?
Windy / BLACK HOLE Clarinets
C CLARINETS refined to concert standards
PRUEFER Silver Throat clarinets restored and improved for jazz and ethnic mojo
Thanks to The Clarinet Pages

Offline shmuelyosef

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Re: Barrel Tapers
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2018, 01:53:52 PM »
I am just starting to experiment...I have a few "throwaway" barrels but mostly all are larger diameters already. I have learned a bit with my large bore Selmers. The CT barrels have a very shallow 'stepped' reverse taper which is matched at the upper joint end, but is much larger than any mouthpiece bore that I have, so I'm stuck with that. If I swap a reverse taper in that I can match a mouthpiece too, but is smaller that the upper joint, it does shift the 12ths pretty much...I have a few barrels and mouthpieces that I am starting to see the effect (with similar tapers) of a smaller bore on the CTs.

My Series 9 (definitely original barrel and I have measured two that are identical) barrel matches the Fobes San Francisco mouthpiece bores well and provides a Moennig slope (I have measured actual Moennig barrels) reverse taper that seems to pin the the 12ths at pretty good intonation. I haven't found a better barrel for this nor have I found any mouthpiece that plays better than my Fobes SF 4L; this is my primary horn and setup.

I have also started experimenting with some Vito 7214s and V40s (I have 2 of each in different vintage...some with Greenbacks and some with Valentino Masters). Barrels make a large difference and tone on these horns, but right now it's a little overwhelming. I'm very close to doing my first experiment with a delrin barrel that has a small bore. Interestingly, the barrels that came with these all are pretty helter-skelter bores. Looks like they came out of the mold and were hand-polished/sanded in just a couple of spots, this includes a couple of NOS Vito barrels I got from Ferrees.

I will report in here if I learn anything interesting
Jeff
Soprano: Yanagisawa (Yani) S990
Alto: Yani A880, A990, Yamaha YAS82ZS
Tenor: Yani T880, T992, Yamaha YTS82ZS
Baritone: Yani B991, Selmer Mk VI
Flute: Yamaha J40, Muramatsu EX
Clarinet: Selmer CT, Series 9
BC: Yamaha 221mkii
Piano: Mason & Hamlin Model A, Fender Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I, Nord Electro 6HP

Offline Airflyte

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Re: Barrel Tapers
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2018, 05:28:24 PM »
Awesome data Shmuelyosef. Thanks for sharing this!
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Offline philpedler

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Re: Barrel Tapers
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2018, 01:59:16 PM »
Hi everyone,

Jeff/Shmuel, I am very new to this whole area and am excited about your research. I only recently got the tool to measure farther into the bore than my calipers would reach. In my little article at the cp.net site, I did mention that a better way to measure would be more than 3 places, and suggested 5 places for trying to understand a more hour-glass shaped bore.

In information that I received by word of mouth from an expert (whom I will not name but who you all would know), he found that the Moennig taper was just a standard taper commonly used by machinists. I don't remember the name of the taper that he said in that conversation. But doing a Google search, the term Morse Taper comes to the top. If this is so, then I suspect that the taper for most Moennig barrels was a straight taper, not an hour-glass shaped taper. What do you get if you try a Morse taper?


Offline Dibbs

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Re: Barrel Tapers
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2018, 04:57:57 AM »
I've also seen it said that Moennig taper is a morse taper but it can't be so.  A morse taper is far too steep at around 3 degrees included angle which would give about 1mm difference in bore diameter over 30mm length. 

Yet, I've read accounts by people who swear that they have seen Mr Moennig use a morse taper reamer on a barrel.  The only sense I can make of this is that possibly, after creating the main taper, he may have used a morse taper reamer to match the bore at each end of the barrel to a specific mouthpiece and upper joint bore to eliminate the sudden discontinuity.

Offline windydankoff

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Re: Barrel Tapers
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2018, 12:42:37 PM »
The Morse Taper story may have originated in a Ridenour video on youtube (otherwise generally good info). I thought he may have been confused with taper-pin reamers, also a standard item in machine shops. The taper-pin has much more gradual taper than the Morse taper, but it is still a much greater taper than any normal clarinet barrel. So you may be right, Dibbs, it may have been just a way of adapting one bore to another with some smoothness.
Windy / BLACK HOLE Clarinets
C CLARINETS refined to concert standards
PRUEFER Silver Throat clarinets restored and improved for jazz and ethnic mojo
Thanks to The Clarinet Pages

Offline shmuelyosef

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Re: Barrel Tapers
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2018, 04:10:24 PM »
I've also seen it said that Moennig taper is a morse taper but it can't be so.  A morse taper is far too steep at around 3 degrees included angle which would give about 1mm difference in bore diameter over 30mm length. 

Yet, I've read accounts by people who swear that they have seen Mr Moennig use a morse taper reamer on a barrel.  The only sense I can make of this is that possibly, after creating the main taper, he may have used a morse taper reamer to match the bore at each end of the barrel to a specific mouthpiece and upper joint bore to eliminate the sudden discontinuity.

Yes, the Morse taper is absurdly more steep. My Ferrees reamer looks cylindrical and you can only tell it's tapered by measuring
Just as an FYI, the tapers in a lot of the aftermarket barrels I've measured are VERY close to the Ferrees Reamer (FR). Some of the barrels are reamed from both sides. The Moennig taper seems to match the FR exactly (both an Accubore "M" barrel and a Buffet "Moennig").

A few of the aftermarket barrels match this taper (PM me if you are curious which ones) but several don't. Chadash barrels, older Selmer barrels and many others are a shallower taper...some are actually polycylinders with blended transitions. Chadash barrels are also very shallow.
Soprano: Yanagisawa (Yani) S990
Alto: Yani A880, A990, Yamaha YAS82ZS
Tenor: Yani T880, T992, Yamaha YTS82ZS
Baritone: Yani B991, Selmer Mk VI
Flute: Yamaha J40, Muramatsu EX
Clarinet: Selmer CT, Series 9
BC: Yamaha 221mkii
Piano: Mason & Hamlin Model A, Fender Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I, Nord Electro 6HP