HP or LP, and what key? (A buyer's guide)

[Windsong]

It is often difficult to tell, in an on-line auction format, just what one is viewing.  We all know the basics, and most of us have attuned our eye to differentiate between subtle key differences among clarinets, but there are times when, despite our knowledge, we remain uncertain as to precisely what we've just purchased until it arrives.  Ofttimes, sellers know very little about the instruments they possess, and rarely provide high quality photos in abundance.  Using the total length of a clarinet is generally a good baseline, but is in no way entirely definitive--especially for clarinets from the early 20th century or before, where bell length and the length of the bottom joint past that last tone hole could vary significantly--both non-critical dimensions. 

I have now changed my opinion on the best measurement to determine pitch.  While I previously recommended measuring from the top of the barrel to the dead center of the F# tonehole--unfortunately, it is just not that easy. 

There are certain standards among conventional Bb clarinets, from 125 years or so until present, that are pretty rock solid, but the same appears not to be the case with the key of C.

Here is what I have recorded, from C clarinets I have had the presence of mind to measure.

(AMENDED) 
-Length below = distance from top of barrel to the dead center of the F# tonehole.
-Total length measurements below are without the MP fitted.

430(ish)hz = 6 1/4"
(Kolar Albert, UJ dia: .470/.480, 19 3/8" long, Eb MP)
438hz = 5 3/4"
(TONEKING Albert, UJ dia: .565, 20.5" long, Bb MP)
440hz = 6 1/8"
(Farny Albert, UJ dia: .535/.525, 20.5" long, Bb MP)
442Hz = 5 13/16"
(Basta Albert, UJ dia: .525, 19 3/16" long, Eb MP)

Pitch and consistency are clearly affected by factors other than just length, as you can see above.  Variances in placement of some of the tone holes, tone hole diameter, bore diameter and mouthpiece table length are just a few of the primary factors that can skew the accuracy of the above reference regarding pitch.

[philpedler]

I thiink it is a great idea to have a sticky thread for this sticky problem.

Years ago I found these measurements that I keep handy:

These are modern pitch clarinets, measured assembled but without the mouthpiece:
Bb     23 3/8 inches        595 mm
A       24 15/16 inches   633 mm
C       20   inches             510 mm

All these are approximate. Many clarinets can have a short barrel, so the measurements can vary at least 3 mm. But when you have something a half inch too short, you've got a HP (high pitch) clarinet.

[Windsong]

Excellent, Phil!

Of the many LP Bb clarinets I own (A=440-442) from 1920-on,  all (French, American, English, and grenadilla, resonite and hard rubber) measure as follows from top of barrel to the dead centre LH index finger tone hole:

7"--7 1/4" 
(178mm-184mm)
Median measurement = 7 1/8" (181mm--with a 3mm shift in either direction, precisely as you stated)

(These measurements were taken with each clarinet's respective original barrel,  regardless of the length--another testament that barrel tuning is just as important to offset minor discrepancies in manufacturing processes among different brands, as to adjusting pitch for ambient temperature, etc)

[DaveLeBlanc]

So here's some approximate measurements for this HP Bb Buffet.
It was at my dad's house when it was sold, and there was an interested party requesting measurements.  They're not exact as he measured with a tape measure to inches, but it's something:


New message to: takisaggelakos
For lower section: from the metal ring to where the cork begins - 9 inches. From the base of the cork to the end of the tenon - 3/4 inch.

For the top section: from end to end excluding tenons, 6 3/4 inches. The tenon with cork is 3/4 inch. The tenon with worn out cork is about 5/8 inch.

The barrel is 2 3/8 inches from metal ring to metal ring.

The mouthpiece is 2 3/4 inches from tip of mouthpiece to the base of the tenon. The mouthpiece tenon is 5/8 inch.

The bell is 4 inches from the metal ring to the end of the wood just past the metal ring on the big side (the wood extends just a bit past the end ring). The inside diameter at the large end of the bell is 2 1/4 inches. The outside diameter at the large end of the bell is 3 1/16 inches.

[DaveLeBlanc]

Approx measurements from a Henri Frenier HP C, courtesy of my father and his trusty tape measure.

barrel
- end to end 1 3/4"
- small end outside diameter 1 1/16"
- small end inside dia 15/16"
- big end outside dia 1 1/8 "
- big end inside dia 15/16"
- dia of opening about halfway down the barrel 10/16"  (5/8")

bell
- length 4 15/16"
- large end
    - metal end outside dia 2 13/16"
    - wood inside metal rim inside dia 1 15/16"
- small end
    - outside dia 1 3/16"
    - inside dia 1 1/16

Lower section
-  metal end to end of wood tenon 8 3/4"
- metal end to beginning of wood tenon 7 15/16"
- metal end outside dia 1 1/16"
- metal end wood dia 14/16
- wood end outside dia before tenon 1 1/16"
- tenon outside dia 14/16" (7/8")
- tenon inside dia 13/16"

Upper section
- tenon end to tenon end 7 3/8"
- end to end excluding tenons 6 1/16"
- shaft outside dia 1 2/16" (1 1/8")
- tenon outside dia 13/16"
- tenon inside dia 9/16"

[Windsong]

That's great Dave.  Thanks for that.
Think you can persuade him to take the measurement from the top of the barrel to the dead centre LH index tone hole?
:)

[DaveLeBlanc]

That's great Dave.  Thanks for that.
Think you can persuade him to take the measurement from the top of the barrel to the dead centre LH index tone hole?
:)

Actually it just sold today so I asked him to take measurements before boxing it up and away.  I'll make sure to remember that measurement in the future.

[windydankoff]

A client sent me a Buffet Crampon Boehm system clarinet dated to 1900. He bought with the barrel missing. He thought it was a C clarinet because it's so short. It's nicely restored but ... He bought a C barrel for it and the tuning was way out of proportion. He sent it to me, since I work on C clarinets. It's longer than a C. It's an old-standard high-pitch (HP) Bb.

I tested various barrels and found an antique one that plays just right. (Both length and bore are critical, to assure good 12ths, top to bottom.)  After I found this sweet spot of overall intonation where it's "in tune with itself", I varied the setting of my tuner and found A=454 would show good tuning all around.

That is within the HP orchestral range from the 1900 era, as I understand it.

My substitute barrel of choice:  62mm long, bore 15.14mm (.596")

Length top of barrel to bell is 562mm (22 1/8")
BORE at top of upper joint is 14.96mm (.589") which is typical of a modern Bb.

I agree with Windsong that a measurement just in the upper range of the instrument is very useful. In the lower joint and the bell, inside dimensions vary widely between instruments, and thus they effect the overall length even for equally pitched horns. So, here it is:
Top of barrel to the center of LH index tone hole is 167mm (6.58").

Now what?
Is it worth trying to sell? (with a substitute barrel) Does anyone play these things? Or is it just a lamp candidate?

[windydankoff]

Here's a photo of the HP Bb referred to above. The metal band at the top is a crack repair.

[ozebob]

I recently watched Utube where clarinet from china had 2 barrells of different lengths, I guess it is 2 keys

[LarryS]

I recently watched Utube where clarinet from china had 2 barrells of different lengths, I guess it is 2 keys

That is for fine tuning

[DaveLeBlanc]

I recently watched Utube where clarinet from china had 2 barrells of different lengths, I guess it is 2 keys

That is for fine tuning

Specifically, sometimes you need to push in or pull out a little too much (for whatever reason), so instead of exposing 1/2" of cork, you can just use a different sized barrel