Penzel Mueller Serial Time line

[PigSquealer]

I've tried to post pictures without any luck. Copy & paste doesn't work. No luck finding instructions either.
Edit; see post below ⬇️

[Windsong]

PS,
The site platform is brand new, actually, and you should not have to use the toolbar, unless you hit "Quick Reply". 

You should just be able to drag and drop or click on the drag and drop bar and post from your own gallery. (See screenshot)

[Windsong]

PS,
I don't think anyone here has ever seen a Bass P-M.  Sorcerer and Andy may have, but they have been gone for many years--sadly.

The truth is that among those individuals still present, we had never even heard of an alto P-M until recently:

(https://clarinetpages.info/smf/index.php/topic,2504.msg16947.html#msg16947).


Dr. Bob mentioned finding an Alto and a Bass P-M on Ebay in the same case back on 11 May 2014, but the link is long dead: (http://www.ebay.com/itm/PENZEL-MUELLER-BASS-CLARINET-AND-ALTO-CLARINET-BOTH-WOODEN-/111350418162?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19ed008af2)

Large P-Ms are clearly exceptionally rare. Most days, I spend 4-5 hours searching the internet for all P-M and Harry Pedler listings on Ebay, Reverb, Etsy, and Goodwill.

I eagerly look forward to your photos.

[PigSquealer]

Here ya go !

[PigSquealer]

Picture shows automatic octave system and Lo Eb on bow.
The mouthpiece appears to predate Selmer using series markings. IE; No S-80 below the logo. This has the potential of being orginal if PM only produced a few basses.

[PigSquealer]

PS,
I don't think anyone here has ever seen a Bass P-M.  Sorcerer and Andy may have, but they have been gone for many years--sadly.

The truth is that among those individuals still present, we had never even heard of an alto P-M until recently:

(https://clarinetpages.info/smf/index.php/topic,2504.msg16947.html#msg16947).

Large P-Ms are clearly exceptionally rare. Most days, I spend 4-5 hours searching the internet for all P-M and Harry Pedler listings on Ebay, Reverb, Etsy, and Goodwill.

On post #147 the catalogs clearly show Bass Clarinets as part of regular product line. I find this very interesting ! So where did they all go ?

I assume there was some kind of working relationship with Borgani saxophones too ?
I wonder if the people at Borgani have any PM knowledge ?

[Windsong]

That is truly exceptional.  It is frankly a museum piece.  I hope you will fully restore and play it.

As for where they are, the joke may be on us in 10 years, when a P-M alto and bass hoarder pops out with 5 thousand of them.  I am still waiting for the reality TV episode that auctions off Silver Sorcerer's stash.

[PigSquealer]

I just realized that Altos are listed too !
Big mystery if only three examples still exist. Being a low volume maker is well understood, but so few still around is odd.

[Windsong]

The prices there are rather astounding, assuming this was sometime in the 1940s (or even 1950s).  That is real money!

[PigSquealer]

That is truly exceptional.  It is frankly a museum piece.  I hope you will fully restore and play it.

I'm in complete shock as to how rare this gift is. Oh yeah I will definitely keep this and play.
It's currently on my bench receiving some TLC. Upper joint was stored with a swab inside. Both joints I've been treating (groundnut oil) for three days. The action is solid, clean & oil only. Pads seal and regulation is all there. Pads are a mixed set. I'll repad after a few days test playing .

For the timeline records. It appears the few orginal pads were tan leather. Any larger than 22mm have rivets.

[PigSquealer]

The prices there are rather astounding, assuming this was sometime in the 1940s (or even 1950s).  That is real money!

The products and prices are clues to date those catalogs. I don't think they are 1968, 1970. More like No.68 & No.70.
Borgani timeline to price comparison could be the best clue. I love detective research work. This PM timeline thread will take many more years to complete. Silversorcerer did a unbelievable job archiving the information. I know what it takes to build information archives.

See here if anyone is interested in my other bad habits.

https://www.saxontheweb.net/threads/repair-information-links-from-pigsquealer.402916/#post-4636458

[350 Rocket]

The clarinets in the believed-to-be-1968 price list match the 1967 edition of Music Instruments (a complete band instrument price guide published by The Instrumentalist). The double reeds do not, but some are higher and some are lower. Since they're all imported, maybe there were price fluctuations (and it's unclear what those B and C suffixes are supposed to indicate).

The believed-to-be-1970 price list generally doesn't match the 1970 edition of Music Instruments. Most soprano clarinets are priced the same, but everything else is more expensive in the P-M price list, and there are also some differences in the models listed. The Model 66 Empire is gone and the 100 Pacemaker is seemingly replaced by the 110 New York at the same price. Music Instruments shows the Super Brilliante altos and basses that are missing in the P-M list (but does not have the "New York" one-piece Ebonite models), and the prices for the Artist alto and bass are higher than in Music Instruments. The Dynatone is $25 less and the Borgani saxophones also have lower prices, so if I were to speculate, I'd say the second price list is from late 1970 at the very earliest.

[PigSquealer]

The clarinets in the believed-to-be-1968 price list match the 1967 edition of Music Instruments (a complete band instrument price guide published by The Instrumentalist). The double reeds do not, but some are higher and some are lower. Since they're all imported, maybe there were price fluctuations (and it's unclear what those B and C suffixes are supposed to indicate).

The believed-to-be-1970 price list generally doesn't match the 1970 edition of Music Instruments. Most soprano clarinets are priced the same, but everything else is more expensive in the P-M price list, and there are also some differences in the models listed. The Model 66 Empire is gone and the 100 Pacemaker is seemingly replaced by the 110 New York at the same price. Music Instruments shows the Super Brilliante altos and basses that are missing in the P-M list (but does not have the "New York" one-piece Ebonite models), and the prices for the Artist alto and bass are higher than in Music Instruments. The Dynatone is $25 less and the Borgani saxophones also have lower prices, so if I were to speculate, I'd say the second price list is from late 1970 at the very earliest.

Good to know. Thanks for posting this information.

[PigSquealer]

The number and letter D7 was discovered yesterday. This is on both joints and located under stack hardware.

[Windsong]

The number and letter D7 was discovered yesterday. This is on both joints and located under stack hardware.

Aah; the batchmarks; the great mysterys that typically die with their inscribers.