The ClarinetPages Forum

Clarinet Roadshow => Trading Post => Topic started by: DaveLeBlanc on June 21, 2016, 12:26:37 AM

Title: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on June 21, 2016, 12:26:37 AM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Clarinet-Old-And-Stinky-With-Case-/152137672789?hash=item236c1ca855:g:zlcAAOSw-4BXaGU3

Best title ever.  Love the honesty.
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Silversorcerer on June 21, 2016, 06:03:36 AM
This comes from a detailed description: "The case quite worn, handle is torn off and has a very musty smell.
The clarinet is cracked, broken, worn, and has a musty smell."  ;D

It really didn't look that bad in the photos;- rare Oliver Ditson, but I don't need another project right now. Great keys on that one it looks like.
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on July 27, 2016, 08:01:46 PM
Here's a golden description for a golden clarinet:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-WOOD-CLARINET-/272321645421?hash=item3f67a28b6d:g:YXQAAOSweXhXmLJ~

" the case is in poo condition "
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Silversorcerer on July 28, 2016, 08:48:38 PM
Here's a golden description for a golden clarinet:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-WOOD-CLARINET-/272321645421?hash=item3f67a28b6d:g:YXQAAOSweXhXmLJ~

" the case is in poo condition "
;D

That'll make coffee come out your nose! I think I bought that one a couple of times.
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Windsong on July 30, 2016, 05:28:46 PM
A few months ago, I passed on Henry Gunckel clarinet, pre-1910, because of only ONE issue regarding the condition.  It was beautiful, and the photos were quite good, BUT it had been cracked in half, snapping the upper joint's lower tenon off in the lower joint's upper socket.  (That type of repair is way beyond my capabilities to repair, at present)

I just HAD to ask how this happened, and the seller, having mentioned "one family ownership since new", divulged in a PM that his grandfather wrapped it around his great uncle's head during an arguement, and his great uncle was so hard headed that it snapped in half.
Had it been posted on the actual listing, it would have been priceless, but even in a PM, it was amusing.  (Yes, the uncle lived, and apparently went on to put in 89 good years on this earth, hard-headed and all.)
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 01, 2016, 06:53:25 PM
On many of the instruments that have been set aside for decades, the reason is some kind of failure or damage resulting in procrastinated repair and the owner passes eventually disposes of it in that condition. That's usually how an instrument is when I get it. Sometimes I can reconstruct the incident that took an instrument out of action. I once bought a salvage Gibson classic guitar C-0 that someone had put their hand through the top of it or someone's head through the top of it. Gibsons have the toughest neck joins in the industry. The neck join was solid, the ribs were completely in tact, one brace snapped inside and the body split twice along the edges of the bridge all the way to the shoulders. I re-glued the braces that came loose during the impact, installed a new brace where it broke out, cleated the cracks and closed it all up and it was solid as a tank again. I could reconstruct the event but what I imagine is someone accidentally falling on it or stepping on it if it were left on a floor.

And I learned what a bent guitar tuner meant in terms of damage. You learn this when you try to straighten a bent guitar tuner. It's always one of the end tuners, never the middle one or the one closest to the neck. And it takes two pair of pliers to straighten a bent tuner stem. These are very hard steel. That means it took equal force to bend it. That guitar got hit on the headstock with great force to bend the tuner. It probably fell over sideways. When I bought my salvage Gibson SG standard, it had a bent tuner. It also had a broken neck repair. The bent tuner occurred when the guitar fell and the neck got broken. It became clear to me what it meant after that when I saw guitars with bent tuners. Look for loose neck joins on these and damage to the ribs (cracks) on either sides of the neck where the twisting force was concentrated when the headstock hit the floor.

So what does this have to do with clarinets? I recently purchased one for salvage that had a thumb rest attached with gorilla glue or some similar XYZ glue. You learn to translate these things. What would happen if your thumb rest suddenly failed while you were marching or on stage? Look beyond the thumb rest if it has been re-attached. This one with the gorilla glued thumbrest also has a tenuous repair of the whole LJ socket, which could be described as "shattered" like the one that hit the fellow over the head. I surmise that this is where the impact was concentrated when the thumb rest failed and the player dropped the instrument. The bell survived, the tenon survived, but the UJ socket took the hit. This particular clarinet plays well despite the damage. I'm pondering ways to structurally reinforce the socket.
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Windsong on August 02, 2016, 01:39:41 AM
Good account, and I too play guitar (no better than the next bloke, but I can defend my self fiercely with some 12 bar.), so I can appreciate your analogies.
Regarding tenon repair, while all situations differ, the only way I know to truly repair a shattered tenon is to remove it, and with a lathe, reconstruct one out of similiar materials, and counter sink it into the so-affected woodwind.  It's a tedius, arduous process, requiring a steady hand, sound mind, and a lot of measuring, but a good repair is often stronger than the original. 
While I understand, precisely, the dynamics involved, I am not yet ready to undertake such a repair, as I am not currently set up with the right work space or tools to affect such a repair.  Tenon breaks are, as I have heard them referred, "profit killers",  because they are so time consuming, and it's easy to go astray and further destroy the wood. These types of repair should be reserved for either truly rare woodwinds or ones where the sentimental value outweighs profit margin.
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 02, 2016, 10:18:01 AM
I think I have a good matching vintage lower joint to substitute. I could use it as a socket donor and do a socket graft but what is the point of cutting off the top of one lower joint that is already in one piece to glue to one that is in several pieces? The best result possible is a grafted lower joint and the donor appears to be identical in both dimension and keywork. A socket graft would be a challenge for me, but in this case it's one that I can avoid. It will have a different mark and serial, but in this case a Pruefer/Moennig hybrid will be a good working result.

It's not always the case, but in this case it makes a lot of sense to just swap in the good lower joint, freshly re-padded and regulated by Phil, which is currently paired with an upper that cracked so badly and warped that it could not be restored. This is that Moennig Bros. clarinet that Phil recommended for a lamp base. So far I have used the bell, a couple of keys;- and now I will take one of the LJ keys from the clarinet with the busted socket, fit it back onto the Moennig LJ (which I had borrowed a key from that is identical) and substitute the whole in tact lower joint. That allows me to have a structurally sound and complete seven ring Pruefer UJ with a structurally sound Moennig LJ. I typically would not mix makers like this but Pruefer, Moennig, and Penzel Mueller were making essentially identical instruments at the time these were made (circa WW1). So here's what happened with that. I borrowed first an LH5 lever key from the Moennig to fix a Penzel Mueller with identical keys. Then I happened on a second seven ring Pruefer with a good UJ, playable lower joint with a weak socket repair. I want to put the Moennig LJ on it but I gave one of the Moennig's keys to the Penzel Mueller. So now the Pruefer will donate a key from it's busted LJ back to the Moennig LJ and it will go to make the Pruefer solid.

Meanwhile the upper section of the broken Penzel Mueller LH5 lever key has already left the bone yard and is installed on my new hundred year old H. Bettoney bassoon that had a broken and missing key. I can mix and match and recycle parts whenever it makes sense to do so. One day I will build some unusual instrument from nothing but stray parts of others.
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Windsong on August 02, 2016, 08:34:33 PM
Aah, the Frankenstein!  Frankly (pun intended) I think that is an excellent use of resources, and I believe I would do precisely the same.  The fact that they fit and work is testament that it's not criminal.
You are returning life to several instruments, and that's always moving forward, as far as I'm concerned.

Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on August 11, 2016, 08:28:04 PM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bunny-Clarinet-Completely-Overhauled-/272338409766?hash=item3f68a25926:g:mkkAAOSwV0RXrOx6

Don't you want a Bunny?  I know I do.
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 17, 2016, 03:23:35 PM
"This is a used Commodore clarinet. It is mechanically sound but will need pad work and 1 cork if you intend to play it. It would make a nice decorative  piece or lamp.  The clarinet was made in the England and will still be playing when the big box store Chiner one is in a land fill. "

 ;D ;D ;D

http://www.ebay.com/itm/371604203135?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 18, 2016, 06:28:09 AM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cadet-Clarinet-NEEDS-REPAIRS-/262582475638?hash=item3d23229b76:g:hnsAAOSw-itXtNJr

I think I need to get my dog to check this one out.

"Clarinet is in good shape

On the outside. BUT smells old."
 :o

- Could be a deal breaker.
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on August 18, 2016, 10:38:09 AM
I'm sort of convinced I've developed some sort of lung problem with the past several years of huffing mold, spores, and musty cases...
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Windsong on August 18, 2016, 04:43:27 PM
As someone who is extremely sensitive to mold spores, you bring up a valid concern.  And it should be a valid personal concern for all of us. 
When I receive a "new" clarinet (or any woodwind, for that matter), I open the case in a well ventilated area--preferably outside, so I can evaluate it.  If it's not bad, I will set about cleaning it, and I quarantine the case to the garage in inclement weather, and the bright hot sun in good weather.  I am an ardent supporter of Doctor's Products case cleaner.  It has emulsifying agents that neutralize bacteria and mildew, instead of sealing them in and masking the bad smells. 

Mold spores can and WILL kill some people, and they do no good to any of us. 

An ounce of prevention...
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on August 18, 2016, 06:57:56 PM
I sure hope I don't start developing issues.  I'm too young for this!  Then again, I sort of put it on myself...
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Windsong on August 18, 2016, 07:24:07 PM
No point in crying over spilled milk.  Just implement a protocol for handling future aquisitions, and you'll probably be fine.  The human race is a hearty one, generally speaking.
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 18, 2016, 07:36:20 PM
Thyme heals all wounds;- at least those caused by mold spores.

The two ingredients I have added to my vegetable oil based bore oil mixture are thyme oil and tea tree oil, both available in 4 oz. bottles from an Amazon seller. I've recieved a few clarinets that had some foxing on the them and I treat these with straight thyme oil. It has a smell something like turpentine, almost like petroleum distillates. Camphor is another oil that will suppress any kind of mold or fungus growth and apparently it also slows down rust and key oxidation as well. Mold is like cancer, best dealt with if you get to it early.

To a lesser extent it is also a problem with brass instruments and there is even a description of it as a disease that musicians get sometimes from this. Believe it or not, there was a 19th advertisement for new violins that characterized old violins as containing possibly lethal fungus pathogens. In general I don't think that ad had much affect on the vintage violin market where older is generally perceived as better. You don't blow through a violin so maybe it's not a big deal.
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: andybeals on August 19, 2016, 12:58:41 PM
Are you talking about "saxophone lung" aka "bagpiper's lung"?
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 19, 2016, 04:32:59 PM
Are you talking about "saxophone lung" aka "bagpiper's lung"?

I think that might be it. The recommendation on the trumpet forum was rinsing the horn periodically with rubbing alcohol or ethanol. That probably doesn't work for clarinets for many reasons.

As a precautionary measure, I put a fairly stout dose of anti-microbial essential oils into the bore oil mixture. I might add a few other oils as well. Different ones hit different target microbes. Most also repel insects.

Hard rubber and plastic can get moldy too. I guess with those you might have to use a disinfecting soap of some kind after taking the keys off.
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: andybeals on August 19, 2016, 08:18:28 PM
Same thing affects brass players, too: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/study-brass-wind-instruments-allergic-lung-disease/story?id=11569520 (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/study-brass-wind-instruments-allergic-lung-disease/story?id=11569520)

This worries me, too.  I have mild asthma, allergies (mold among them), and a propensity to go from bad allergies, to bronchitis, to pneumonia.  Hopefully, I won't see that progression anymore, now that I know that it's OK to hit my inhalers to prevent it.
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 20, 2016, 01:16:34 PM
I had a serious bout of chronic respiratory infections from about 2002 to 2011. I was catching every minor virus that came along and typically that would progress to bronchitis is about a week. There was hardly any time that I was not sick or recuperating from bronchitis. In the winter of 2010 - 2011 I nearly died of pneumonia and it took months to recover. After the fall of 2011, I haven't experienced ANY nuisance respiratory infections. The only thing that I changed was my water source. I changed from municipal water to filtered rain, more as a practical necessity than as a conscious choice.

That was my experience with suppressed immune function. My problems weren't related to playing vintage horns. I still play vintage trumpets and at the time that I had chronic infections I wasn't playing any woodwinds yet, so my problems were not related to any vintage instruments. All of my older brass instruments were sterilized with extremely hot water and automobile detergents (to remove oil and grease) before I played any of them.

I concluded that the municipal water supply contained chemicals that somehow lowered my immunity. Atlanta's water is better than most municipal sources, but it is chlorinated and also fluoridated. Others might have different experiences, but since I have been drinking water that is from the sky, I have not had even a common cold that lasted longer than two days. Rain starts out with far less impurities than water that has already hit the ground. I set up my collection system by the guidelines for a safe collection system published by the state of Texas (Georgia has none). I wasn't shooting from the hip to get safe drinking water from rain, I went by well established guidelines.

I also was plagued with extreme allergic reactions for most of my life. I took weekly shots for desensitization when I was a child. It didn't have much of an effect on my allergic reactions. Those reactions were to mold, pollen, certain cosmetic ingredients, and some unknowns. I no longer have those allergies.

There is one physician who is a proponent of improved hydration and I think he is on to something. His clinical findings were that several serious health problems were most plausibly the result of chronic dehydration and most allergies, according to his theory, were the result of dehydration.

Still, it is just good common sense to keep the instruments we play free of pathogens and there are many ways to do that. Mold spores are practically everywhere and take hold whenever the humidity and temperature are mold friendly so it is definitely a situation where an ounce of prevention is the best strategy.
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on August 20, 2016, 01:54:47 PM
Just this past week, i began to sprout warts on my fingers. Ive never had any before and i cant imagine why id get them now.
As warts are caused by HPV virus often entering through wounds, my only conclusion is that my habit of accidentally poking myself with needle springs may have led to an infection of some kind.
I wish someone told me how dangerous the business is for ones health...
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Windsong on August 20, 2016, 07:00:41 PM
This from:
http://www.webmd.com/skin-problems-and-treatments/features/viruses-cause-skin-warts

“The most important thing when you see a wart is getting rid of it immediately,” Brodell says. Warts can spread on your body if left untreated.

“Every wart is a mother wart that can have babies,” says Brodell. “You need to get rid of all visible warts whenever they appear so you don't have more spread.”

Most dermatologists agree that people can start with home remedies or wart removers from the drugstore.

“I usually advise trying at-home treatments -- first with salicylic acid or clear nail polish or tape or any other method that suffocates the virus,” Johnson tells WebMD.

Title: Okay; back on topic!
Post by: Windsong on August 20, 2016, 09:16:57 PM
Okay, we all know Eddie Money plays sax, and he's actually a mighty fine player.
Could this Buescher have been his?
I say, "It's plausible". 
Judge for yourself.  Either way, it's a hilarious posting, and a nice sax, as long as you don't mind split B and Bb bell keys.  I certainly don't.  I actually prefer a sax set up this way.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Old-The-BUESCHER-Tenor-Saxophone-With-EDDIE-MONEY-Enagraved-On-Bell-No-Res-4-/222173696706?hash=item33ba9592c2:g:trEAAOSwvg9XdxZohow me the Money!
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Windsong on August 24, 2016, 05:30:51 AM
Are you talking about "saxophone lung" aka "bagpiper's lung"?
Interesting that while reading this morning's paper, there was an article on this exact issue, aptly titled, "Death of a Bagpiper".  Apparently, it is often referred to as Farmer's Lung, Hot Tub Lung, Pedgeon Fancier's lung, Bagpipe Lung, Trombone Lung, and Saxophone Lung. 
I can see how bagpipes hold in mold spores, as I can see how the valves and slide on a trombone would also trap bacteria and mold, but for the life of me, I cannot see how a Saxophone would cause issue, unless one never removed the reeds, and never washed out the mouthpiece.  Obviously, anything a sax could harbor would be easily replicated in a clarinet, oboe, bassoon, etc.--and to a greater degree, as moist wood is a perfect breeding ground for mold and bacteria, whereas brass is not, inherently.
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 24, 2016, 06:26:45 AM
When I was in junior high, I ran water that was near boiling down the bell of my cornet about every two weeks. Brass instruments are essentially brazed brass plumbing. Extremely hot water is safe, unless it is an early lacquer. Silver plating is not a problem. I don't do that as often with the trumpets I play now. The best practice is to keep the instrument clean.

Thorough swabbing of the bore after playing and regular treatment with a safe antimicrobial should greatly reduce the risk of such infections. In the case of instruments that have been in storage, a thorough cleaning is in order followed by the same kind of regular maintenance. I am going to look into the idea of camphor crystal packets because this does double duty and reduces key oxidation.

We could all be in fear of shower stall fungus too. The easy answer is keep your shower (and you horn) clean. Typically you'd clean a moldy shower stall before taking a shower. Treat an instrument the same way. Right now I'm testing pure white thyme oil for effectiveness at eliminating mold inside a case that had a musty odor like mildew. The clarinet inside is hard rubber so it should be easy to clean. What I am guessing is that the fumes of the thyme oil will do the trick without the need to saturate the case interior. In this particular experiment the case lining will need to be replaced due to wear. I just want to see if the thyme oil is effective.

Thymol is a chemically processed water soluble version of thyme oil. When I worked in archival document / paper art conservation, we used crystalline thymol to treat documents that displayed foxing (mold). It was very effective just by leaving the documents in a sealed chamber with the crystals for a few days. Natural thyme oil has the same properties but has to be carried in an oil. Thyme oil mixed into the bore oil seems to make a lot of sense to me. Beware of the chemically processed thymol crystals. Thymol is mildly carcinogenic. The natural thyme oil is not.

Saxophones? "How many saxophone players does it take to clean the shower......"  ;D

There are areas in a sax, particularly the goose necks of the tenor and baritone that are not swab friendly. If there are corks and pads on those, or steel sprung mechanisms you can't really dunk them in steaming water like I do with my trumpets and cornets and other valved brass. Likewise, you can't spike a bore oil with thyme and tea tree. An alcohol soaked swab might be in order for those goose necks. Bassoon bocals have the same problem and thin silk swab is used to dry them out and clean them.

The other side of it is keeping your immune system healthy. That might be primary. Most of these infections are opportunist microbes that can't get a toe hold in a healthy individual. Eat clean, drink clean, live clean and you are more likely to stay clean.
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: andybeals on August 24, 2016, 07:19:01 AM
An article from 2013 on a case of "saxophone lung" developed by a clarinetist who didn't clean his clarinet for 30 years:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/08/saxophone-lung-clean-clarinet-instrument-woodwind_n_4221368.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/08/saxophone-lung-clean-clarinet-instrument-woodwind_n_4221368.html)

I managed to gross out a bandmate with this last season and he finally took his clarinet into the shop after having had it for what was probably ten-ish years.  In April, he upgraded to a Edgware (wooden, mid-fifties, really dense wood) that wasn't a year out from having a full re-pad.  I'm betting that he's swabbing his (newer) instrument regularly now.

Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Windsong on August 24, 2016, 05:48:07 PM
Unless I'm just doing a 15 second run through the keys, I always swab my clarinets after play, remove the mouthpiece, and oil the bores 4 times a year.  The case does not get closed at home for 24 hours after a serious play, even after swabbing (with a clean wool swab).  I clean my swabs and hang them to dry every time I use them.  I don't typically use silk as wool does a better job (though it does tend to leave lint, which is not preferable.  Perhaps I should chase with silk.).
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 24, 2016, 06:57:09 PM
The best thing about that article was that it established that if one DOES clean the instrument, the health problems clear up.
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on August 24, 2016, 07:44:17 PM
The best thing about that article was that it established that if one DOES clean the instrument, the health problems clear up.
Luckily I don't really play that much anymore.  If I did, I'd probably have a forest of mold growing in my trachea or something
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on September 10, 2016, 01:49:32 AM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/silver-clarinet-/182274165880?hash=item2a70630c78:g:G9UAAOSwknJX0ghY

That's a neat looking clarinet
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Airflyte on September 10, 2016, 08:31:31 AM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/silver-clarinet-/182274165880?hash=item2a70630c78:g:G9UAAOSwknJX0ghY

That's a neat looking clarinet

Looks like a cheap Chinese C-mel !!
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Windsong on September 10, 2016, 12:53:50 PM
Do you suppose it was "barely used"  because he bought clarinet music and a clarinet fingering guide, and gave up, out of frustration?
  ;D
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on September 11, 2016, 01:46:26 AM
Do you suppose it was "barely used"  because he bought clarinet music and a clarinet fingering guide, and gave up, out of frustration?
  ;D
Wouldn't be surprised.  That's kind of what would happen to me...
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on September 13, 2016, 12:19:31 AM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Clarinet-BuffetReplica-New-Other-/191969107687?hash=item2cb2401ee7:g:XsgAAOSwneRXRXHn

At least they admit it's a fake...
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Silversorcerer on September 13, 2016, 05:44:40 PM
"This clarinet was bought in Marseille and only used to prove it. their status is entirely new, default: exact replica manufactured in Korea, ....."

There are famous stories of Stradivari replicas, some of which are in museums and the very knowledgeable cannot tell which is which.

The history of fake musical instruments is a long one, however in the machine age, the question becomes a different one. Certainly a Buffet-Crampon is a corporate machine massed produced instrument. It might be fine tuned by humans at a few points, but these are not recognized individuals beyond their abilities, which are shared by many humans. If an R-13 is a set of specifications and measurements, is a measured replica a fake or just a Korean R13?

Is a German made Conn 424N a fake? Does the contractual arrangement between Conn and Schreiber make these real Conn 424N clarinets? Schreiber certainly didn't build those by their own specifications. And what about the Swedish Levins that were so identical to the C.F. Martin guitars that Martin finally built the company and moved the production of a couple of Martin models to Sweden (that did not last long).

Is something defined by it's intrinsic materials and dimensions or by a logo on it? Are stencils another type of fake? When we have reduced the human artifice involved and an instrument is mostly defined by measurements taken by machines and created by machines, the name on it might best be CNC Lathe, Router & Co.

One of the most disturbing forgeries was a submarine the Soviets built. It was precisely the design of a US submarine that Congress decided not to fund. Someone in the spy agency sold the Soviets the design and the first news the US Navy got of it was when one of the Soviet subs surfaced and a helicopter spotted it. That moment had to be a real eye opener.  ;) The story made Life magazine back in the mid 1980s.
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Windsong on September 13, 2016, 07:01:34 PM
Good perspectives, Sorcerer. 

So here is what I am thinking:

1) How does the seller know it's fake?
2) What distinguishing characteristics, if any, give it away?
3) If it is fake, how close is it to the original, and if a perfect forgery, how did they get all the components to look and function authentically?  (Surface textures and composition, key density and hue on silver plating, especially, as those are the hardest to fake.  The eye is easily fooled, but the hand is not)
4) If it is a forgery, why haven't Buffet filed suit?
5) If it is a perfect forgery, why would anyone purchase a real one for 4+ times the price? 
6) When is Buffet moving their plant to Korea, or hiring these master forgers to come work in France?  :o
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on September 13, 2016, 07:17:12 PM
Although the logo font is fairly good, it's immediately evident that this is a cheap Chinese-made CSO, made from cheap plastic.  The case looks nice, but I would bet it's super light and flimsy.

I'm actually impressed with the advances they've made in faking technology.  Several years ago, the "A Paris" logo was definitely off, and was immediately noticeable. These days, the font is much closer to the real thing, and could fool an unsuspecting rube.
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Airflyte on September 19, 2016, 10:18:52 AM
It took me a while but now I know the "signature" of this forgery ; http://www.ebay.com/itm/new-BUFFET-Bb12-clarinet-with-in-Beautiful-box-/162199599140?hash=item25c3d97824:g:iioAAOSwuYVWmtWZ (http://www.ebay.com/itm/new-BUFFET-Bb12-clarinet-with-in-Beautiful-box-/162199599140?hash=item25c3d97824:g:iioAAOSwuYVWmtWZ)

I won't disclose the "tell"(there's actually two) just yet - I want a fellow forum member to find it too!

Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on September 19, 2016, 10:49:58 AM
It took me a while but now I know the "signature" of this forgery ; http://www.ebay.com/itm/new-BUFFET-Bb12-clarinet-with-in-Beautiful-box-/162199599140?hash=item25c3d97824:g:iioAAOSwuYVWmtWZ (http://www.ebay.com/itm/new-BUFFET-Bb12-clarinet-with-in-Beautiful-box-/162199599140?hash=item25c3d97824:g:iioAAOSwuYVWmtWZ)

I won't disclose the "tell"(there's actually two) just yet - I want a fellow forum member to find it too!
It took me a while but now I know the "signature" of this forgery ; http://www.ebay.com/itm/new-BUFFET-Bb12-clarinet-with-in-Beautiful-box-/162199599140?hash=item25c3d97824:g:iioAAOSwuYVWmtWZ (http://www.ebay.com/itm/new-BUFFET-Bb12-clarinet-with-in-Beautiful-box-/162199599140?hash=item25c3d97824:g:iioAAOSwuYVWmtWZ)

I won't disclose the "tell"(there's actually two) just yet - I want a fellow forum member to find it too!
The "B 12" designation looks a bit off, but that's all I see.
The yellow foam things I've seen in several other Chinese clarinets, so that might be something.

I can't believe they faked the brochures/literature and even the cork grease!
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Airflyte on September 19, 2016, 11:13:26 AM
It took me a while but now I know the "signature" of this forgery ; http://www.ebay.com/itm/new-BUFFET-Bb12-clarinet-with-in-Beautiful-box-/162199599140?hash=item25c3d97824:g:iioAAOSwuYVWmtWZ (http://www.ebay.com/itm/new-BUFFET-Bb12-clarinet-with-in-Beautiful-box-/162199599140?hash=item25c3d97824:g:iioAAOSwuYVWmtWZ)

I won't disclose the "tell"(there's actually two) just yet - I want a fellow forum member to find it too!
It took me a while but now I know the "signature" of this forgery ; http://www.ebay.com/itm/new-BUFFET-Bb12-clarinet-with-in-Beautiful-box-/162199599140?hash=item25c3d97824:g:iioAAOSwuYVWmtWZ (http://www.ebay.com/itm/new-BUFFET-Bb12-clarinet-with-in-Beautiful-box-/162199599140?hash=item25c3d97824:g:iioAAOSwuYVWmtWZ)

I won't disclose the "tell"(there's actually two) just yet - I want a fellow forum member to find it too!
The "B 12" designation looks a bit off, but that's all I see.
The yellow foam things I've seen in several other Chinese clarinets, so that might be something.

I can't believe they faked the brochures/literature and even the cork grease!

Bingo on the "B 12" font! - also see 2 barrels? That just screams cheap. Oh, and the listing title - notice that it's 'Bb12' not actually 'B12'.

Good call on the yellow foam things too Dave.

These guys sure try hard though - that logo is very close to the real thing.
Title: "Beyond Unbelievabe", or "Who does this?"
Post by: Windsong on September 21, 2016, 07:26:38 AM
I've seen many an abused clarinet before, but most are the subject of negligance due to ignorance, which, while sad is forgivable, whereas this is just criminal.
The person who wrought havoc upon this poor, rare keyed 4 ring Albert, however, is probably a serial killer:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Most-hated-very-old-wooden-Bb-Clarinet-4rings-for-spateparts/131918277094?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D39218%26meid%3D23c8a4b061a9402ea0b702862947c110%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D131941888101
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on July 28, 2017, 10:46:39 PM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/french-saxophone-/162607554703?hash=item25dc2a608f:g:Ia0AAOSwo~lZelG0

Title: "French Saxophone"
Description: "got this at auction 15 years ago price range was 1500 to 13000"

SOMEHOW I DON'T THINK A NOBLET TENOR SAX WOULD SELL FOR $13 grand
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on November 10, 2017, 08:34:20 PM
I'm always down for a couple of bongs

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Natural-Finish-Latin-Style-Bongs/292318134661?hash=item440f84c185:g:O0oAAOSwH-dZ~mPn
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Lisa on November 24, 2017, 08:51:43 PM
Andybeals asks the question that i too, would like answered.  Am i not a clarinet, and a woodwind?

This guy has the answer.  You may be exquisite, and a clarinet, but really, you’re just a small black tube that should be filibustered in step 3.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Exquisite-E-clarinet-small-black-tube/332459092333?hash=item4d681b296d:g:juEAAOSwFARZxwML
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: LarryS on November 25, 2017, 02:33:43 AM
Wow, a do it yourself clarinet kit!

https://m.ebay.com/itm/New-ABS-Plastic-clarinet-body-parts/332430282661?_trkparms=aid%3D444000%26algo%3DSOI.DEFAULT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D49488%26meid%3D8cb48c24e6dd431eb65e88a24b05008d%26pid%3D100891%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D11%26sd%3D332459092333&_trksid=p2056116.c100891.m5206
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: LarryS on November 25, 2017, 03:03:13 AM
It took me a while but now I know the "signature" of this forgery ; http://www.ebay.com/itm/new-BUFFET-Bb12-clarinet-with-in-Beautiful-box-/162199599140?hash=item25c3d97824:g:iioAAOSwuYVWmtWZ (http://www.ebay.com/itm/new-BUFFET-Bb12-clarinet-with-in-Beautiful-box-/162199599140?hash=item25c3d97824:g:iioAAOSwuYVWmtWZ)

I won't disclose the "tell"(there's actually two) just yet - I want a fellow forum member to find it too!
It took me a while but now I know the "signature" of this forgery ; http://www.ebay.com/itm/new-BUFFET-Bb12-clarinet-with-in-Beautiful-box-/162199599140?hash=item25c3d97824:g:iioAAOSwuYVWmtWZ (http://www.ebay.com/itm/new-BUFFET-Bb12-clarinet-with-in-Beautiful-box-/162199599140?hash=item25c3d97824:g:iioAAOSwuYVWmtWZ)

I won't disclose the "tell"(there's actually two) just yet - I want a fellow forum member to find it too!
The "B 12" designation looks a bit off, but that's all I see.
The yellow foam things I've seen in several other Chinese clarinets, so that might be something.

I can't believe they faked the brochures/literature and even the cork grease!

Bingo on the "B 12" font! - also see 2 barrels? That just screams cheap. Oh, and the listing title - notice that it's 'Bb12' not actually 'B12'.

Good call on the yellow foam things too Dave.

These guys sure try hard though - that logo is very close to the real thing.
Hmm my Windsor came with those yellow sponges. I just thought that was normal.
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: andybeals on November 27, 2017, 04:52:17 AM
Andybeals asks the question that i too, would like answered.  Am i not a clarinet, and a woodwind?

This guy has the answer.  You may be exquisite, and a clarinet, but really, you’re just a small black tube that should be filibustered in step 3.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Exquisite-E-clarinet-small-black-tube/332459092333?hash=item4d681b296d:g:juEAAOSwFARZxwML

That's some fine Chinglish.  I have a branded Chinese eefer - it's not horrible. 
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Lisa on November 27, 2017, 07:00:03 AM
Good to know, I've looked at them.  The cost of a case alone is 45 bucks, and for about 35 to 40 more, I could get a clarinet along with the case.
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: LarryS on November 27, 2017, 07:58:07 AM
Those little Ebs look cute. I quite like the idea of a bass too but wow, expensive!
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Airflyte on November 27, 2017, 01:23:49 PM
I'm just going to "face palm" on this one!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CUSTOM-1960-s-Buffet-White-Clarinet/142600947330?hash=item2133adc682:g:MbQAAOSwXaRZ86jr
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on November 27, 2017, 03:04:20 PM
I'm kind of tempted to strip it and see what's really underneath... could be a treasure?
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: LarryS on November 27, 2017, 03:28:04 PM
I'm just going to "face palm" on this one!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CUSTOM-1960-s-Buffet-White-Clarinet/142600947330?hash=item2133adc682:g:MbQAAOSwXaRZ86jr
Wow, just wow!

"This is a WOOD clarinet, and no the paint did not change the sound or playability"
No but I bet it certainly affects the wood's ability to breathe!
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: mechanic on November 27, 2017, 08:00:06 PM
I'm just going to "face palm" on this one!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CUSTOM-1960-s-Buffet-White-Clarinet/142600947330?hash=item2133adc682:g:MbQAAOSwXaRZ86jr (https://www.ebay.com/itm/CUSTOM-1960-s-Buffet-White-Clarinet/142600947330?hash=item2133adc682:g:MbQAAOSwXaRZ86jr)


It's like putting an Earl Scheib paint job on a Porsche.
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Dibbs on November 28, 2017, 02:25:21 AM
I'm kind of tempted to strip it and see what's really underneath... could be a treasure?

If they'd done a better job it might have looked ok. 
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Airflyte on November 28, 2017, 04:11:08 PM
Quote from: andybeals link=topic=1035.msg10970#msg10970 date=1511787137
That's some fine Chinglish.  I have a branded Chinese eefer - it's not horrible.
[/quote

Andy, I encourage you to start a new thread in regards to your Chinese eefer. Just a mini-review if possible.  Maybe disclose the seller (eBay, I assume) and the "brand".  I'm very interested in these little clarinets.
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: Windsong on February 26, 2018, 08:12:56 PM
Heartbreaking; viewer discretion advised:

This a legitimate fear of mine--I die with a clarinet torn down and am the only one among my household who knows what goes where, and where each piece has been carefully placed.  I wonder if the keys are still among her late husband's things, neatly tucked into small tabletop drawers, screaming to be let out and reunited with their clarinet. 
I always liked the Omega.  Perhaps a small miracle will happen, and the seller will find the keys.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Selmer-CT-Omega-Clarinet-Depose-Paris-France/132516825490?_trkparms=aid%3D888007%26algo%3DDISC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D44039%26meid%3D4f7b3a5661134e7c9695dcf9145d68e4%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D2%26sd%3D292459773951%26itm%3D132516825490&_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on February 27, 2018, 09:53:48 AM
Heartbreaking; viewer discretion advised:

This a legitimate fear of mine--I die with a clarinet torn down and am the only one among my household who knows what goes where, and where each piece has been carefully placed.  I wonder if the keys are still among her late husband's things, neatly tucked into small tabletop drawers, screaming to be let out and reunited with their clarinet. 
I always liked the Omega.  Perhaps a small miracle will happen, and the seller will find the keys.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Selmer-CT-Omega-Clarinet-Depose-Paris-France/132516825490?_trkparms=aid%3D888007%26algo%3DDISC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D44039%26meid%3D4f7b3a5661134e7c9695dcf9145d68e4%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D2%26sd%3D292459773951%26itm%3D132516825490&_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982
Oh, boy. What a shame. I bought a Buffet Academy bass clarinet for just $305 once, which seemed like a great deal at the time. It was a complete basket case but I thought all the pieces were there. But, turns out it was missing a single critical key pad cup (low B), and with that, my $305 investment into what I was hoping to be a couple-thousand-dollar sale was wasted.
I did find a Vito bass which I stole the key off of, although it doesn't fit, I'm certain that I can, with enough jury rigging, make it "work", although all resale value is now lost.
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on February 27, 2018, 12:19:35 PM
I believe these are the worst quality pictures I've ever seen
https://www.ebay.com/itm/LYONS-MONARCH-Eb-ALTO-WOOD-CLARINET-art-IN-ORIGINAL-CASE-SERIAL-31600/263517777988?hash=item3d5ae23044:g:4PMAAOSwKIdaY94e
Title: Re: The Honest Seller Thread
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on March 05, 2018, 10:08:42 PM
"Plating looks great"
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Leblanc-Contra-Alto-Paper-clip-Clarinet-S-N-182/282872436409?hash=item41dc82d6b9:g:-WEAAOSwIH1anelX

This looks like it was left in a swamp for a decade.