The ClarinetPages Forum
Clarinet Roadshow => Make and Model lists and research => Topic started by: Windsong on December 19, 2016, 05:20:04 PM
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I have just acquired a phantom clarinet--a 7 ring "Harry", made presumably between 1919-1930--not a 1930s-on "The Pedler" branded Martin. I bought it on a whim, as I had never seen or heard of a 7 ring from the aforementioned.
Does anyone here have information regarding a 7 ring HR Harry Pedler?
There seems to be no information, whatsoever, in cyberspace to tap into.
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Only Harry I've ever heard of is the Pedler. It's got to be American since no European makers would have gone by "Harry". Can you tell from the keys what maker it may be related to? Perhaps it's a stencil?
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Sorry, Dave. My post was confusing. I was attempting to make a play on the latter company's branding of "The Pedler" by calling it The "Harry".
It hasn't arrived yet, but it's reportedly imprinted Harry Pedler and Co.
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Sorry, Dave. My post was confusing. I was attempting to make a play on the latter company's branding of "The Pedler" by calling it The "Harry".
It hasn't arrived yet, but it's reportedly imprinted Harry Pedler and Co.
Sounds like a true pre-Martin Harry horn (that sounds odd) - anyway, I'm looking forward to your assessment of the instrument!
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With the clarinet having arrived this AM, and upon having the opportunity to inspect it, I must say I am very pleased. It IS a 7 ring, 18 key Harry Pedler, pre-serial number LP Bb.
It is hard rubber, and the body appears to be virtually flawless. Interestingly, there is a circumfrential weld mark on the lower joint. It appears not to be a repair, as it does not intrude into the bore at all. As interestingly, there is an authentic 1941-1945 U.S. Army 3rd Armored Division (AKA "Spearhead") applique on the original case. The 3rd was one of the most active heavy armor divisions of WWII, and participated in most of the major battles in France. As this clarinet was presumably built 11-22 years before the 3rd's involvement in the war, there may be no affiliation, whatsoever, but it does cause me to wonder whether it saw military service.
The keywork is all there, blemish free and unmangled (albeit tarnished), the screws that hold the keys in place are generally unmolested, and the pads look mostly original. Keywork is unlike anything I have ever seen. It looks solid, but fragile (or "dainty"), if that makes any sense. Believe it or not, it plays, top to bottom, but suffers from leaks, so a heavy hand was required for some notes. I did get every note to register, and it has a surprisingly beautiful, dark tone in the Chalumeau register.
It's dirty, and will need an entire disassembly and rebuild, but the keys shine under the grime like nickel and appear unplated, exhibit little wear, and it's all here. With this being hard rubber, I can soak the stripped body in lukewarm water and mild detergant without doing any damage, as I do resonite clarinets, and HR mps.
Now, to determine what I really have.
Well-that's the preliminary report. I'll post up photos as soon as I have a chance to do a decent once-over spitshine. I wasn't looking for another project, as I'm currently involved in two disassembled woodwinds, but the iron was hot, and I'm glad I struck.
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Could the weld mark possibly be marks from a marching lyre ???
Sounds like an interesting "horn".
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Good thought, and initially, I assumed it was a scratch, but it's in a spot where keywork resides, so nothing could have been clamped around the clarinet at that location. It could be an excellent surgical repair, where perhaps the tenon socket snapped (a likely scenario in a warzone), and someone simply cut out the offending area, and machined and counter-sunk a donor socket, which is why there is no repair indication on the inside of the bore, but this scenario is improbable. I simply tend to think that at time of manufacture, they did not want to waste a good, almost long enough piece of hard rubber, so they spliced on another small section, prior to machining, but that idea seems odd to me, as well.
:o
If I get it up and running, I may say farewell to my resonite clarinets, as HR is reportedly even more thermally stable.
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I've seen that on a hard rubber oboe, once. I figured it was a repair, but if it was a repair it was done pretty darn well.
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If that's the one that I saw, I was tempted-till you bought it! It also has no crow's foot, correct? Just extra arms w/ adjusting screws.... Silversorcerer on here has a wood/silver plated keys version if so. Glad it looks to be in good condition. I've found that my old very old wooden instruments are needing tone hole work to seal up properly, but the metal/hard rubber seem to give very few problems- the pads seal up like butter first try, and no cracks. I'm thinking these hard rubber are way to go for the best antique players. I passed on an old Kohlert HR years ago, have been looking for one again, though the Valettes that Phil reviewed with the excellent intonation are tempting as well.
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Very good eye, Modernicus. That's the one. Because I had actually never seen a Boehm without a crow's foot (or at least hadn't paid attemtion if I did), I thought this an unusual one. The double arm achieves the same result-just with different, and dare I say "better" or at least more sophisticated means, as it has an adjustment screw, for precise regulation.
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Some Harry Pedler metals as well as H.N. White metal clarinets used this arm/ no crow's foot arrangement as well back then. I think silver mentioned that Peter Eaton has used it in more recent times. Looks like a good idea.
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It certainly makes sense to me. It requires more precise and extensive machining in the manufacturing process, but the result enables the handy player (and certainly the mechanic) to make easier and more accurate adjustments on the fly without the need to bend keys, and much simplier key angle regulations to the most finicky of Boehms. I've fought with the crowsfoot cluster far more than with any other keys, as I imagine we all have.
I wonder why it never caught on in the mainstream, and can only imagine it was due either to patent rights or a desire not to break from the standard of the time.
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Windsong, any follow-up on this one? Just wondering . . .
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Lisa has motivated me to get off my duff and post pics of my dirty green Harry Pedler:
:o
Check out that unusual top joint sliver key with the little pad cup beneath it. I am going to have to look more into this...
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Nice! It does look a lot like mine, though mine is just "the Pedler" making mine a Martin stencil, not an actual "harry" like yours is.
Lisa
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Very nice, thanks for sharing the pics!
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Very nice, thanks for sharing the pics!
I'm just sorry it took so long. They are lousy photos, but when I dive in, I'll use a real camera.
Can you make out the weld I referenced on the bottom joint? Curious.
The barrel and the top joint are labelled Harry Pedler and Co. The bell is labelled The Pedler. I have read that The Pedler was also used by Harry before moving on after the Martin aquisition on bell stampings, but I cannot confirm this claim with any accuracy. The rubber appears identical, and the size and shape of the stamps are identical, leading me to believe this is accurate.
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Well, It just depends upon whether your clarinet was made in or just before 1932. If so, it was reportedly made under the instruction (or at least approval) of ole Harry Walter Pedler, himself. Your Pedler would not be considered a stencil by any means, even if it was manufactured after 1932, as it was the extension of Pedler's original design.
The Harry Pedler stamp was discontinued, I suspect, because Harry likely had plans to use his brand again, and probably had legal rights to it. Martin kept the essential part of the Marque to retain what precious small customer base was already in place, and, of course, because the clarinet--at least for a time, went unchanged.
At least yours has a serial number, so if records exist, it may prove definitive in dating it. What little I can gather on Harry and his son states that they had quite the falling out with Martin, as they had different ideas on how things should be manufactured, and washed their hands of the entire enterprise abruptly. Interestingly, the Pedlers apparently were so incensed with the Martin company (not Mr. Martin, himself, who reportedly died in 1910) that they allegedly went to work for Martin's direct competition--Buescher--making saxophones, but would never again see their own name adorn a woodwind. I'd love more info, but it's entirely scarce. Much of the info I have been able to find (which is not much) I had to translate from German from a free translation site into butchered/oversimplified English. And without notations, it's impossible to call the info anything more than plausible. I can tell you that Harry Pedler first moved from England to the US in 1905 to work for G.G Conn, and so he probably did meet Mr. Martin, as I believe Martin worked for C.G. Conn for a time. Gus Buescher certainly did. Anyway, end of history lesson for today, but it IS fascinating.
Regardless, I believe what you have is very unusual--maybe even rare, dunno. It certainly exhibits all the characteristics of a pro level horn, and while Martin may never have been widely known for their clarinet manufacture, they certainly knew how to make a saxophone.
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It certainly exhibits all the characteristics of a pro level horn, and while Martin may never have been widely known for their clarinet manufacture, they certainly knew how to make a saxophone.
Shhhhh, on the Martin saxes . . . I'm really digging my alto ;) Even the Reynolds (RMC) horns are Martin to the core.
Great sleuthing work on Mr. Pedler and his relationship? with Martin Band Co. Where did you read that Pedler had anything to do with saxophone manufacture??? Amazing.
As far as the weld mark goes, it just looks so clean and neat that it must be a factory process - I don't know what else could explain that.
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Here is a link I translated from German, using Freetranslation.com. Quite informative, actually:
http://capionlarsen.com/george-lewis-pedler-albert-metal-clarinet/
(Pay no attention--unless you want to--to the George Lewis info. It's quite interesting, too, but not what I was after. The meaty info about Pedler begins below that.)
Other information I referenced was found on Woodwind.org, and Angelfire, as well as a few rather obscure accounts that cross-link Harry Pedler on Wikipedia to Conn, Buescher, and Martin. These guys all knew each other, and it seems, that while they all came up with their own unique interpretations for designs, it all goes back to one bloke--C.G. Conn. He trained them all, and by gum; they ALL became his competition. Apparently he didn't make any of them sign a non-compete agreement!
I get the impression, based upon days and days worth of info I've read on Conn, that he was more interested in the proliferation of musical instrument invention and perfection than he ever was with turning a profit. Just look at the way he went out. All his chips were on the table, and he went out in a fiery blast, with little more than a penny to his name. It's a really sad story, actually...for a man who was brilliant, innovative and resolute.
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Airflyte,
Did you notice the "D" stamped into one of the undersides of the keys in the weld mark photo? There is another D stamped into another key, and other random marks, too, here and there. The spatula and trill keys are flat and broad; almost leaf-like in their design, and I have never seen keywork like it. Also, check out the thumb rest. Typical 1920s over and under pinning, but again, different than the typical French design, and unique.
As for the secret of Martins being excellent horns, I'm afraid the secret is already out. Tried pricing a Searchlight Committee II, lately? Ridiculous!
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Airflyte,
Did you notice the "D" stamped into one of the undersides of the keys in the weld mark photo? There is another D stamped into another key, and other random marks, too, here and there. The spatula and trill keys are flat and broad; almost leaf-like in their design, and I have never seen keywork like it. Also, check out the thumb rest. Typical 1920s over and under pinning, but again, different than the typical French design, and unique.
As for the secret of Martins being excellent horns, I'm afraid the secret is already out. Tried pricing a Searchlight Committee II, lately? Ridiculous!
Yes, I did see that - very unique clarinet you have. I'm going to dig into that link you posted - I find it fascinating how intertwined the Indiana based companies were.
. . . . and you are correct - the Martin secret was exposed years ago. Now I see that prices for Indiana's and Imperial's are on the rise.
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It is fascinating and curious. Johnny Martin, Gus Buescher and Charlie Conn were all buddies for a time, but who can truly say what drove them to form separate companies. I partially jest at Conn's lack of non-compete agreements, but I believe he wanted the other two to succeed, though I can only speculate as to why. They were essentially partners, even if only Conn's name was on the factory. Without Buescher, who knows if Conn would have ever launched a saxophone line. Martin, having had extensive tutelage in Germany from Hammig, decided to immigrate and try his skills out in the US, in Chicago, initially. (Holton also initially set up shop in Chicago, btw, but more on Holton later).
All were of German descent, but Buescher and Conn were both born in the States. Only Johann Martin emigrated from Germany. All worked together launching Charlie Conn's business off the ground in 1876.
Johann Martin had 4 sons. At least one of them (his eldest, Henry) also went to work for Charlie Conn in 1890. He then went to work for Buescher some time later. I bring this up because:
Without Buescher, Conn wouldn't have had a sax maker. If you place a Martin and a Buescher next to one another without looking at the em"bell"ishments, you could easily confuse the early split bell models, as they appear nearly identical. Coincidence? Certainly not. They shared ideas and designs, and must have liked each other a lot. Directories were irrefutably interlocking, and it would not surprise me to learn they shared employees, or had a lot of flip-flop between factories. Certainly their engravings, while based upon different motifs, implement almost identical techniques during the 1920s and 30s. Very curious.
Now, as promised, here is a fun fact about Frank Holton. Although he got his start in Chicago, he made the decision to move operations to Elkhorn, WI. I guess it really is true that if you wanted a successful band instrument company in America, your city had better start with "Elk". While Holton never achieved the same level of fame the other three received, his later horns are considered fantastic, and saught after as of late.
Finally back to Harry Pedler. In 1905, Pedler was essentially recruited by Charlie Conn to come to the states and work for him, due to his extensive experience building some of the most (non-French) precision clarinets the world had seen. He accepted Conn's offer, and the rest is history. Curious how the only two soprano clarinets I have seen with a locking top and bottom alignment catch are Pedler and Conn...but--oh, that's right! They worked together. Extensively.
;)
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That's a well written tutorial on "horns from the heartland" (that has a ring to it) - as far as Martin and Buescher sharing employees, I can imagine some were double agents to a degree.
Imagine this scenario:
Joe Smith works at the Buescher factory - he's the keywork fitter, making sure everything lines up with the rods/posts.
Bob Jones works at the Martin factory - he's busy soldering in tone holes, making sure everything is level and true.
Their kids go to the same school, everyone knows each other as friends. One day, Joe decides to invite Bob and his family over for a barbeque . . . . . . and inevitably after dinner, the two men start discussing "work" and that's how it starts!
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Indeed.
Gus Buescher also made some fantastic clarinets between 1910-1920. They are scarce these days, and I do not own one, but they come through from time to time. Among his clarinets from that time period, ALL that I've seen were made in the Albert system. The newer Bueshers (1963 and newer) are not *really* Bueschers at all, other than in name.
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http://digitalcommons.butler.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1412&context=grtheses
Here's a masters thesis written in 1953 on instrument manufacturing in Elkhart In. An interesting read, and shows the link between all the Elkhart makers was Conn.
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Mechanic--that's a fascinating read. Thanks for posting that link.
And I stand corrected: C.G. Conn was a fighting Irishman, whose grandfather immigrated from Ireland--not Germany. Kahn would be German, but Conn (derivative of such popular Celtic names like Connelly, Conner, etc.) is indeed Irish.
"I have as intelligent, faithful and industrious a lot of working people as ever were assembled under one roof, and find it is my duty as an employer to adopt and put in force any and all measures which shall in my opinion promote their welfare."
C. G. Conn
(From the body of the above research thesis)
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Have you found out anymore information on this "Harry" clarinet? It looks very similar to the Henry Gunckel that I recently picked up, same chromatic Eb/Bb key, 7 ring, even the same thumb rest. I have been on a quest recently to figure out how actually made some of the Henry Gunckel clarinets that have been called Buffet stencils for the longest time - I do not believe they are Buffets at all, I believe they were more than likely built by Couesnon. Another that appears very similar is the F. Barbier (Couesnon) and on Phil's site he shows a uni-body seven key Peddler with the Eb/Bb key.
Are the keys on your "Harry" soft Nickel Silver? I noticed the keys on the Gunckel that I just got are very soft and bend easily.
What is the bore on yours? I was shocked to find the bore on the Gunckel that I just got measured a whopping 15.06 mm at the top of the LH joint.
Does yours have B LP stamped in the RH joint by the second post from the bottom? My Gunckel is also stamped at the top of the LH joint.
Does yours have any markings stamped in the barrel under the keys? Both of my Gunckels have very similar batch stamping under the keys on both upper and lower joints letter and #.
Keep sharing any other information you come up with on your "Harry", because I think it probably it is at the very least a close relative to my Gunckel and probably the F. Barbier 7-ring clarinets.
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This Harry Pedler has a very standard 14.75mm (.581") bore, like most bores of the time, all the way through the top joint, but it has a sweet, fat sound like you would expect from a large bore.
Your Gunckel has a 15.06 bore? That's big! Bigger, in fact than my largest Boosey. I can't imagine that using a standard mouthpiece will garner an optimal sound. You might try to source a B&H .600" MP that won't hamper tone or projection, or something comparable.
I see no batch marks, except for the Ds stamped into the underside of some keys. The keywork is silver-plated nickel-silver, and does not seem particularly soft, but it is thin and dainty, so I suspect far more fragile than your average Bundy. As a result, the keywork, even unrestored, is fast and light, despite weak spring tension. I feel like a superhero playing it.
It is not stamped Bb or LP anywhere, and has no serial number, as was standard on most clarinets to well into the 20s, save for Buffets and Conns and a few others, who stamped early.
As far as I know, Henry Gunckels were only ever made in France. I would not be surprised if Pedler "borrowed" ideas from successful French designs of the day, especially since he worked in England until 1905, and likely had the opportunity to visit French factories.
If you think this one is nice, check out Lisa's full Boehm Pedler.
Actually, I'd be curious about the bore on that one.
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That is a really nice "Harry". Harry was a promoter of hard rubber clarinets and took the material very seriously;- even when he worked for C.G. Conn. I therefore view the early C.G. Conn hard rubber clarinets as also being stealth "Harrys".
I do have a 6-ring "Harry" hard rubber, also no serial, that has the unusual alternative to the crow's foot. These confirm that this type of keywork was a Pedler feature that was used on a few "Pedlers" even during the Martin period, but it seems to originate on the genuine "Harrys". "Harry" also made some stencil brands in hard rubber. More on that later.
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Very good to know, Sorcerer. Judging from the rubber used, I believe that he took hard rubber seriously. It has excellent finish on tight porosity. I'd like to know with more certainty, why the lower joint was grafted--either from the factory or as a repair, but either way, it was exceptionally well done.
I'll be interested at some point to learn more about Conn's HR clarinets, and how they relate to Harry.
Regards-
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That "graft" line is nearly invisible. Perhaps when the joint circumference was machined there was some hard particle stuck to the blade for a split second in the turning? It's completely insignificant and probably not a repair. That's a rare Harry. I have some examples of Martin era 7-ring models. Two were great players until I wore out the pads on them. I need to do some comparative photos of some of those but I think all the Pedler 7-ring models I have seen are slightly different.
Lisa's is identical to one that I paid far too much for or perhaps she got very lucky.
My guess is that your Harry might have indeed seen some military use. I doubt all of the clarinets in military use were brand new. I have seen several Martin era Pedlers that have US or USN marks;- a hard rubber Harry would have been well suited to that kind of use. At that time, according to an old brochure, that was the pro Harry model. They made Premier (intermediate) and an American (beginner) models as well. Later, Martin used the same designations and others.
Here are some catalog illustrations of your Harry. It's the 177 ebonite model, I think. Even in the illustration the not-crowfoot is visible. Also there is a good photo of the description;- Grenadilla by special order on the soprano models. The altos and basses were made in rosewood. The same brochure has a section that I can't read but headlined "The popularity of Ebonite".
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Interesting catalog pages. I've had these images for ages and never noticed that there is an explanation of not only the ebonite process but also the "not crowfoot". Imagine that. ;D This is also where I finally found out my mystery bass was a 201A model;- in rosewood. I think this brochure was from 1924. It appears from the description that the "not-crowfoot" might be a Pedler exclusive feature. I don't know if this is all the models or just some of them. I know at some point the Premier and American were introduced and it was before Martin took over.
Lisa's model would be a Martin version of the 207 model with a few extra goodies.
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Incredible, Sorcerer. That brochure is priceless...absolutely priceless. I have wondered why, since acquiring this Harry, why information seems so scarce.
Because the rubber looks identical in hue on both sides of the "line", you may well be right about the fact that something hard got stuck in the turning machine. I had never considered that, but I like that theory.
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Lisa's model would be a Martin version of the 207 model with a few extra goodies.
Thank you for identifying my clarinet, I do appreciate it!
Lisa
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http://digitalcommons.butler.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1412&context=grtheses
Here's a masters thesis written in 1953 on instrument manufacturing in Elkhart In. An interesting read, and shows the link between all the Elkhart makers was Conn.
This is a very interesting read, and has some great jewels within it, particularly to someone like me that sees Conn as a very rare lion of a man, almost a social-capitalist if such a thing exists;- but I found that the author kind of missed the New England makers, many of which were well established in Boston and New York before Conn opened up in Elkhart. He does mention James Warren York, but only as if he materialized in Grand Rapids out of nowhere. J.W. York apprenticed in New England, never was associated with Conn and made some of the finest cornets and brass instruments ever built. The York Band Instrument Company of Grand Rapids was a very large maker in the midwest. And before York there was Moses Slater in New York, and the author entirely skips Harry Bettoney, William Haynes, Verne Q. Powell, T. Berteling, and generally anyone that didn't come out of the Conn factory. It is true that Elkhart concentrated the talent and workers and gained a critical mass that didn't really happen in New England, but New England makers came first and there were bands that were outfitted with instruments made in the USA before Conn went into business. Conn even bought one of those early New England factories when the Isaac Fisk died. Fisk's workshop was reputedly equipped with the best tooling in the USA at the time.
Look into a fellow named Henry Distin. He is arguably at least as responsible as Conn for spurring USA brass instrument making. You have some seeds planted in New England in Boston, Philadelphia, New York, Providence that were growing even before Elkhart. It can be accurately said that any maker that didn't get started under Conn's roof was either in New England or came to the midwest from New England. It should be a bit intuitive with New England being industrialized long before the "Northwest Territory" was settled.
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Absolutely right, Sorcerer.
Conn's Elkhart was certainly the main epicenter of drawn talent in America, but not the sole heir to the thone, so to speak.
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Not to sidetrack Windsong's thread, If you've never seen these photos and are the least bit interested in Conn's legacy - please, take the time to view these incredible photos. http://www.dannychesnut.com/Music/Conn/conn/ (http://www.dannychesnut.com/Music/Conn/conn/)
(Clarinets start at photo #31)
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C. G. Conn is one of my personal American heroes, or maybe fighting Irish heroes. Either way, thanks for the photo link. :)
So Seamus says to Timmy, "Timmy, you heard about the Irishman who went to American and built a fortune?"
Says Timmy, "Why no, Seamus, I didn't;- tell me then, just how much did that poor laddie lose?" ;D
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That was one huge and impressive workshop. This story is quite fascinating to me because even though there was not internet in 1875, it was a smaller world, particularly in brass instrument manufacture. The degrees of separation were mostly single digits. Above I mentioned Henry Distin, a brass instrument innovator that emigrated to New England and worked with and/or trained quite a few of the New England brass makers.
Henry Distin had worked for Besson in both France and England before coming to America. From the article linked above, "About this time Conn met Eugene Victor Baptiste Dupont (b. Paris ?May 1832; d. Washington, D.C. 26 July 1881), a brass instrument maker and designer and a former employee of Henry Distin of London."
I had not known there was a connection, albeit indirect between Distin and Conn. The link was Eugene Dupont, Conn's original partner. In that indirect way, Distin, who also came to America to capitalize on his patents, was also involved in the chain of events leading to Conn's opportunity. Not all men would have risen to that opportunity.
After Conn lost his fortunes, that is whatever remained of them after he enjoyed a long life spending his fortunes, he also wrote a few books that express his rather optimistic approach to living. I've read a little of one of them and it is clear that this fellow was as much a 19th century thinking philosopher as he was an instrument maker and manufacturing tycoon.
But he really didn't know much about woodwinds. He delegated that to Harry Pedler. That is why I refer to the early Conn clarinets as stealth Harrys. ;)
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I am a history nut, as much as I am a collector (and perhaps I'm a collector because I AM a history nut--dunno), and I genuinely appreciate you sharing these things, Airflyte, Sorcerer.
Really fascinating information. To be a fly on the wall--even briefly--during some of the magnificent planning conversations these men must have had. I'd have shared a cup (or three) of coffee with any of these men in an instant.
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Alright Windsong, chew on this; http://woodwindshelp.weebly.com/uploads/2/3/7/9/23791000/italy_sax.pdf (http://woodwindshelp.weebly.com/uploads/2/3/7/9/23791000/italy_sax.pdf)
I'm in the process of researching Orsi built instruments and found it very interesting - lots of connections were being made in Italy as well!
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Alright Windsong, chew on this; http://woodwindshelp.weebly.com/uploads/2/3/7/9/23791000/italy_sax.pdf (http://woodwindshelp.weebly.com/uploads/2/3/7/9/23791000/italy_sax.pdf)
I'm in the process of researching Orsi built instruments and found it very interesting - lots of connections were being made in Italy as well!
Cool beans! The Italian makers are some that I know the least about. I suspect a couple of low $$ deals I picked up are Rampones, but hard to be sure. There's a cool Italian something, something, something (seek and yee shall find) up presently for those that follow these things. Orsi was quite the interesting Professor, indeed.
Windsong, if you are interested there is one of Conn's books available in full for free on Google books. I have seen the other two on Amazon and as soon as I finish Tragedy and Hope (1000 pages by Carroll Quigley) I might dive into some more C.G. Conn. I am a slow put persistent reader. It's the only way to see into the minds of dead men. Thank heaven quite a few of them wrote books.
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I do have a great .pdf on Italian clarinets;- that is you can read Italian. I think the same book is translated on scribD(?). I got into it researching a curious mark on a busted Cabart simple system that I picked up for $5 on the auction. It had "A. Gardelli, BAR" on it. I found out that it was Alfredo Gardelli of Bari, Italy reading that translation. It was made by Cabart in France and then sold by A. Gardelli in Bari. The one thing about history is that you will never run out of history to study;- and it is certainly more fascinating than fiction. The Three real Italian clarinets I have are all stencils I bought real cheap. I think two of them may be Rampones, but one was a store brand from New Jersey and the other one exists also in French origin. A third one is really interesting and I have no idea which Italian maker built it. It's kind of sloppily built, but everything works well and it has amazing leather pads that still seal well;- just needs new corks now but I played it with the joints wobbly just yesterday. I've got to get to work on some corks. I am up to speed on pads, but all the ones I've installed pads on still need the corks done. Eventually.....
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I think the Rampone clarinets would be well worth the cost and labor of re-corking. From the link I posted, the 1930 pro level bass sax from Rampone with micro-tuner neck and embossed bell is a work of woodwind art.
Here's Phil's Rampone page http://www.clarinetpages.net/clarinet-history/rampone (http://www.clarinetpages.net/clarinet-history/rampone) that contains a link to an Ebonite simple system in the key of C - a very nice looking clarinet.
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Fascinating, Airflyte. My very good friend is Italian, and lives near this area. Whilst he's not a woodwind player (but a fantastic acoustic guitarist) I will share this with him, and see if he can dig up some folklore.
Thanks for sharing.
Alright Windsong, chew on this; http://woodwindshelp.weebly.com/uploads/2/3/7/9/23791000/italy_sax.pdf (http://woodwindshelp.weebly.com/uploads/2/3/7/9/23791000/italy_sax.pdf)
I'm in the process of researching Orsi built instruments and found it very interesting - lots of connections were being made in Italy as well!
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Two, very similar 7 ring Harry Pedlers, together at last:
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The slideshow continues...
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There is a length discrepancy of 1/4" which is a lot, but they are both LP. The new "The Pedler" has the shortest barrel I've ever seen on a LP Boehm Bb, at 61.5mm, but has a longer top joint by nearly 3/8" over the original "Harry". The new "The Pedler" has matching serial numbers on top and bottom joints (5 digit with a preceeding letter: E19XXX)
and the keys are far more refined, but the design is unchanged, and the function--identical. You will notice the spec keys are far more robust on the newer one, and the crow's foot substitute, too. The keys are a brilliant high gloss nickel plate, over who-only-knows-what. They appear to be forged, and the newer one is noticably heavier. The new one has a body that has absolutely no flaws--not even a scratch; not one. All of the paint is clear and bright white in the stampings, and the case looks nearly new. The clarinet has very little wear to the keys, and I am glad to have been able to procure two, nearly identical clarinets. They will make, despite their clear differences, good bedfellows, and I intend to restore them both, and will consider the notion to build them a double case, or find a good vintage one. They deserve that, as they derive from the same lineage, I think.
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Now that's what I'm talking about. ;D Check out how nicely fitted the keywork is on those lower joints. That precision fitting rivals the French makers. That area of the lower joint is one of the first things I look at on a clarinet. The professional Pedler clarinets have some of the sturdiest keys and at the same time a flowing elegance that belongs to the early 20th C.
And then there is the obvious thing that these have that few others have, and most of those are probably Pedler stencils;- the Pedler "appliance", which allows an easy adjustment to synchronize the LH5 key cluster. I always dread messing with a crow's foot. It's the worst part of the Boehm design. Harry solved it and practically the only maker doing something similar now is Peter Eaton.
What you will see with many makers is that during the time from 1920 to about 1935, the barrel got shorter while the upper joint got longer. In general the length from the tip of the mouthpiece to the register vent is preserved while this design change happened. It's one reason that it is important to have the original barrels and not to make any automatic decisions when a barrel looks too long or too short. If it is original, it's that way because it's the total length of the upper added to the barrel that is important.
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I will agree that the French makers of the time had nothing on Harry Pedler save, perhaps post locks on very few models. The precision with which the keys glide, side by side, is nothing short of genius. And it works, quite wonderfully. Action is quick and precise, with no hinderance to aesthetic appeal, which is, among American manufacturers of the time, rather ahead of its time.
Conn deserves better than his last hurrah. He enabled the best of the best to develop and thrive. He was a champion of optimal design--even if the artists became his competition, and I don't know if the world really appreciates this fact.
Oh, to be be a fly on the wall in the breakroom 100 years ago...
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I'd be interested to find a serial number chart for Pedler clarinets, if anyone may have a lead.
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I'd be interested to find a serial number chart for Pedler clarinets, if anyone may have a lead.
Perhaps we should start a thread similar to the Penzel Mueller serial thread? We have enough information to know when certain events in the history occur. We know the early Harry Pedler soprano clarinets were not serialized, at least not the rubber ones. I've never seen a wooden one so I don't know about those except that the bass models, all four that I have seen do have serials. The altos might also.
Typically what I have found is that there are a few different letter codes preceding a numerical sequence. It is very much like the Penzel Mueller scheme. An "E" letter code appears to designate ebonite, an "A" letter code appears to designate an American model, a "P" code appears to designate The Pedler or Premiere model, and a W appears to designate a model with some special feature, such as the appliance feature which was not broadly used during the Martin BIC years.
I didn't expect much quick success on the Penzel Mueller serial database, but in just a couple of years of adding serials there are over a hundred and now we have a reasonably effective way to estimate time of manufacture by the serial and where it is placed on the instrument. I think we could easily do the same for Pedler. At first it was difficult to find the PM serials and now almost all the sellers are posting them in the listings. We have helped them and now they are helping us. :)
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Not a bad idea, at all.
There has been some interest in similar information on Saxontheweb, but nothing definitive, and another bloke on a brasswind forum in March of 2017 has attempted the same for "H. Pedler and sons", but I have never seen that stamp on a clarinet, and brasswinds most assuredly had their own numbering systems.
As I only have 2 with serial numbers, we will all need to combine forces to stock up serial numbers, and determine whether each letter, indicating composition had its own serial number sequence, or whether the numbers were the serial sequence, and the letters were just added to differentiate composition.
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With the Penzel Muellers, most of the serials I gathered from ebay listings. A good number also came from members here. By far the largest number of Pedler serials is also those that come through ebay. So we can collect them and update the list over time. I just updated the PM list a few days ago. I know I missed some being off the web a couple of months, but to get a good number and establish the sequencing just requires a small fraction of the production numbers.
I'm going to let you do this one but I will help you collect the serials. I've recorded a few of them that were interesting or seemed to offer clues and I have a decent handful of Pedlers myself.
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Fair enough, indeed.
I'll whip up a dedicated thread.
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Good evening, folks.
This afternoon, my most recent Harry Pedler aquisition arrived: An Albert system Model 1544, Bb in Low Pitch, and complete. I found it, scouring for the originals. Inexplicably, I have recently rekindled my interest in this forgotten brand, whereas I lost steam a couple of years back, having been unable to accomplish what I had set out to do; come up with a definitive timeline. I doubt I ever will, but I still greatly appreciate the dark, rich sound of these old birds, and the simple, clever craftsmanship. There is simply nothing like them.
Photos were at best, mediocre, and communication with the seller proved fruitless, so having determined the basics, I figured I'd take a chance. From the photos, I could see that it had Harry's earliest keywork, original diamond pattern logo, wraparound register key, and a double case, and for $75.00, delivered, I felt that was a decent price for a now rare, priceless clarinet that appeared to be easily restorable, and a good stablemate for my model 152 (2-ring), which I love to play.
Thus far, it appears as though, aside from needing to straighten a couple RH index trills, it may also be a fine player. Characteristically, it differs from my other 1919-1923 Harry Pedlers in that it is stamped "B LP" on both joints. Since I have never seen or heard of a HP Harry Pedler, I assume this was done simply to allow for quick identification by those new to the brand, but perhaps Harry Pedler may have made a few HP models? In any event, I was a glad recipient today. Interesting is that no two of my Harrys have identical network. Even the keywork which seems interchangeable is not identical. All of the keys are different, and hand ground. This seems so laborious, to have someone (or several someones) hand grind, polish, and fit keys, when production of the moulding process could have been advanced to minimize such discrepancies, as nearly every other manufacturer had done by this time period. Certainly, once Martin BIC took over, the network was nigh identical, year to year, and across the model spectrum.
Perhaps this is why I enjoy these old Harrys so much. They are like snowflakes.
It will be some time before I have the opportunity to restore this one, but I have saved one more, perhaps, from becoming a prop on the wall of a greasy spoon chain restaurant, somewhere.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Harry-Pedler-Clarinet-w-Case-Accessories-UNTESTED-/383696840041?pageci=d597a1a3-ddb2-4271-9f75-62b2648feecc#vi__app-cvip-panel