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Clarinet Roadshow => Make and Model lists and research => Topic started by: Silversorcerer on August 14, 2017, 06:16:44 PM

Title: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 14, 2017, 06:16:44 PM
With only a few examples represented on this forum so far, I still think it is not to early to begin a thread on Amati clarinets and various brands that were Amati made. These two photos are not ones I made, but are seller's photos I have borrowed from past listings. They are sufficient to identify the stencils because the Amati key work is very unique and easily distinguishes these other brands. Amati resulted from the consolidation of many independent makers under one name and after a decade or more, the quality of the instruments improved immensely. Some of the other trade names that are common are Meyer and Artist. Expect to see other names less frequently. As usual, be sure to compare the key work features because any maker could mark a clarinet Meyer or Artist and certainly I have seen the "Artist" name on clarinets by other makers.
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: Windsong on August 14, 2017, 08:27:29 PM
A fine brand, and one of genuine and sincere quality.  The German inspired (and at times during history--German-made) Czech brand seldom fails to deliver.  I've heard no ill word spoken about their wares from any time period since their inception.
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 14, 2017, 09:44:10 PM
You can upload the photos again, copy and paste the text, or link the URL of the previous post on the other thread.  I'm going to borrow a few from that recent Artist listing as well, maybe a couple of others if I can find them.

Check this one out, a "Prestige" in either hard rubber or plastic composite. I wonder who was using "Prestige" as a brand first? I think some other company is currently using that as a model name.
This listing link will go dead at some point so I borrowed the photo.
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: noneyet on August 14, 2017, 09:52:32 PM
Here's my Meyer, serial number 6147. The serial on the upper joint is curious. Ya think they may have misaligned the stamper a bit??? The coolest thing, however, has to be the funky shaped C#/G#, don'tcha think?  ;D

And that Prestige has the same funky key  :o
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on August 14, 2017, 11:42:11 PM
Excellent idea. I will dredge up the two example of Amati products I have, one generic 1980s product and one very nice ACL 201, a wooden, articulated C#/G# model that ended up selling for something like $450
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: LarryS on August 15, 2017, 08:08:50 AM
Interesting. There is an Amati USA who post on  Instagram now.
https://www.instagram.com/amati.usa/ (https://www.instagram.com/amati.usa/)
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: LarryS on August 15, 2017, 08:11:04 AM
One of their claris

Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 15, 2017, 08:35:49 AM
I'm guessing that is the USA distributor of their new offerings. Foreign corporations frequently set up US daughter corporations to handle distribution. A prime example is H&A Selmer, USA that originally only distributed instruments by Selmer, Paris.

Primarily the focus of this thread is identifying those instruments made by Amati that were or are imported with other brand names marked on them.
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on August 15, 2017, 11:33:03 AM
It wasn't an ACL 210, it was actually a ACL 314.
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on August 15, 2017, 11:37:06 AM
Then there's this, only marked on the bell.
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: LarryS on August 15, 2017, 11:40:00 AM
Thats a beauty Dave! Why is there a hole in one of the corks though?
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on August 15, 2017, 01:11:04 PM
Thats a beauty Dave! Why is there a hole in one of the corks though?
That is for the articulated C#/G# mechanism. Normally, the C# key is located on the upper joint, but the pad is kind of squished right to the very end edge of the joint, leading to some intonation issues.

The so-called "articulated" mechanism seeks to solve these issues by placing the C# hole where is should be, which happens to be exactly in the center of the middle tenon. It's kind of a complicated thing where they have to drill a hole through that tenon but it is said to make the C# a better sounding note.

This problem arises directly from the breaking up of clarinets into two main body joints instead of one (unibody) setup. Unibody clarinets naturally don't have this issue because they hole can be placed exactly where it needs to be, without any hindering of body joint breaks.
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: LarryS on August 15, 2017, 04:01:46 PM
Makes me wonder why more clarinets aren't made in one part (well 3 parts, body + bell, barrel and mouthpiece). Kinda like saxophones.
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 15, 2017, 04:15:16 PM
Makes me wonder why more clarinets aren't made in one part (well 3 parts, body + bell, barrel and mouthpiece). Kinda like saxophones.

Very good question I've often asked, myself, L. And the related question is why don't the one piece metal clarinets have the C# on front of the tube?

I understand the desire for a smaller case, but long and narrow was fine for metal clarinets, so what's the reasoning?  ???
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on August 15, 2017, 04:30:35 PM
I would imagine it has much to do with wood. I would guess that it's a bit harder to find one long, good quality piece of wood than two shorter, good quality pieces.
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: Airflyte on August 15, 2017, 06:26:33 PM
After seeing noneyets  Meyer in post number 3, I could not figure out were I have seen that bell logo design before.

After much digging through the clarinet closet, an "Artist" was found. I forgot how nice the wood and overall build quality was on this one.
Upper joint marked
       
           2
     
       3499

Lower joint marked

       3499

       9212

      Made
        In
 Czechoslovakia


I also found my Minolta Instant Pro in the digging process so that was worth the effort to find the clarinet!



Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 15, 2017, 08:37:09 PM
Those photos show it off very well. What I see when I've followed the auctions on these is that the Meyers, Artists, and other stencil names generally finish at 1/3 less to 1/2 less than one marked Amati;- and it is often the same clarinet and in this case, this Artist looks like it has the solid nickel silver keys.

I think the stencils of this classic are good opportunities.

Some are plated and the plating is generally also very good with nickel silver under it. I don't know which is earlier but I am guessing that the plating could be later? The way they have designed the keys is both elegant, modern, and distinctive. Once you see one of these and study it closely, it's impossible to miss. It's as recognizable as the Kohlert Boehm clarinets that pre-dated it.

So you could get this one new: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/woodwinds/amati-acl-201-bb-student-clarinet

or check that place where the vintage or antiques are and you will find two available now, well under $100, both with vintage hard rubber mouthpieces. I'm the cheapskate so I might check out a vintage one soon.

Nice camera too. Is that an SX-70 type?
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 15, 2017, 09:39:29 PM
See this thread for photos of two other Amati stencils, a La Couture marked one and a Corton marked one. There are others as well, all the same Amati design, some variations in materials.

http://clarinetpages.info/smf/index.php?topic=297.0
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: Airflyte on August 16, 2017, 08:05:19 AM
I will have to verify the finish of the keys.



I think the stencils of this classic are good opportunities.
Nice camera too. Is that an SX-70 type?
It's an instant camera much like the SX-70 but uses "Spectra" film that I believe is available from The Impossible Project - I may have to give it a test drive!

So, back to the Amati stencils, we have the following names;

Are there any more that we can add?
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 16, 2017, 10:39:31 AM
If I remember correctly there might have been one named "Champion" that came up a long time ago, but I didn't find a photo of it on my hard drive;- probably didn't same that one, so we need to wait until we see another one to check my sometimes faulty memory. I rarely trust even my own memory because it makes mistakes.
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: Airflyte on August 16, 2017, 10:57:14 AM
I own a HR Champion but it has no Amati characteristics.

Do you think Amati Kraslice ever produced a clarinet of hard rubber?
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: noneyet on August 16, 2017, 11:23:17 AM
Why yes, Silver, I have a Champion!  ::)

Serial # A 12193, stamped 'MADE IN FRANCE' in tiny letters on UJ and LJ, identical logo with stylized eagle and 3 stars beneath name on UJ and bell, no markings on barrel.  Doesn't being made in France preclude it from being an Amati stencil, though?
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: noneyet on August 16, 2017, 12:04:06 PM
So, back to the Amati stencils, we have the following names;
  • Corton
  • La-Couture
  • Meyer
  • Artist

Are there any more that we can add?


It looks like Carl Fischer imported some 'Artist' models as well, judging by this one :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Clarinet-Made-In-Czechoslovakia-Carl-Fischer-with-Hard-Case/112524183106
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 16, 2017, 01:46:44 PM
Why yes, Silver, I have a Champion!  ::)

Serial # A 12193, stamped 'MADE IN FRANCE' in tiny letters on UJ and LJ, identical logo with stylized eagle and 3 stars beneath name on UJ and bell, no markings on barrel.  Doesn't being made in France preclude it from being an Amati stencil, though?

The French may have their own "Champions", I think. You see, these are not protected trademark names. Any maker can use the names "Artist", "Prestige", "Champion", "La Couture (which is in France, not Bohemia)", or even "Amati", which was a the master violin maker that apprenticed Stradivari in Italy.

When it comes to identifying clarinets with names other than the makers' names (stencils), the only things we can depend on are direct comparisons of the physical artifacts and the country of origin export marks, and other small details like the locations and fonts used in the serial numbers.

A critical part of the exercise is finding a Champion (well known that there are many other artists or Artistes, like the PM Artist that we'd never confuse with an Amati) that is not an Amati while looking for the one that is an Amati.
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: Airflyte on August 22, 2017, 01:10:02 PM
I will have to verify the finish of the keys.


So, back to the Amati stencils, we have the following names;

Are there any more that we can add?
[/quote]

Here's another one ( La Paree ) it's on Phil's website! https://sites.google.com/a/clarinetpages.net/www/vintage-odd-brands/czeckoslovakian-stencil-clarinets
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on August 22, 2017, 01:38:56 PM
Makes me wonder why more clarinets aren't made in one part (well 3 parts, body + bell, barrel and mouthpiece). Kinda like saxophones.

Very good question I've often asked, myself, L. And the related question is why don't the one piece metal clarinets have the C# on front of the tube?

I understand the desire for a smaller case, but long and narrow was fine for metal clarinets, so what's the reasoning?  ???
This has been bugging me for many days now. Why, indeed?
It's very rare to find a metal unibody with the C# on the front, except for the very high class 3-piece metal with articulated mechanism.

So I did a very unscientific test by visually comparing a Normandy 4 with a Boston Wonder Principia.
After lining up the tone holes relatively evenly between the two, I found that the metal clarinet had the C# significantly lower on the body than the Normandy 4.
Although I don't have a Bb with the articulation (I only have FB A clarinets...) I am certain that one would find the C# in the metal clarinet to be in line with the articulated ones.

I believe the C# was left on the side of the instrument because the front was reserved for a lyre attachment.
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 22, 2017, 02:24:28 PM
Well that's way cool to know. So these one piece metal clarinets might have an edge at least concerning the C# key design.
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on August 22, 2017, 04:15:55 PM
I redid my test with a more scientific method, a caliper.
The Normandy has the middle of the C# hole 13mm away from the middle of the C hole. The Boston had the two 19mm apart.
If anybody has a metal clarinet on hand, please see if you can reproduce the results!

So if the C# was more in tune in single piece metal clarinets, why are they considered inferior to multiple piece metal?
My multi piece Laube has the two tone holes even closer than the Normandy at just 11mm apart.
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: mechanic on August 22, 2017, 09:17:27 PM
I redid my test with a more scientific method, a caliper.
The Normandy has the middle of the C# hole 13mm away from the middle of the C hole. The Boston had the two 19mm apart.
If anybody has a metal clarinet on hand, please see if you can reproduce the results!

So if the C# was more in tune in single piece metal clarinets, why are they considered inferior to multiple piece metal?
My multi piece Laube has the two tone holes even closer than the Normandy at just 11mm apart.

I have a Victory metal and they are right in that 19mm range.
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: noneyet on August 22, 2017, 10:18:14 PM
I have a P. X. Laube metal and the distance is also 19mm
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 23, 2017, 08:44:47 PM
OK, thread off course but a Penzel Mueller Gloritone is 13.5mm and an H. Bettoney Columbia is 19mm, and a Merson Ultratone (HP Bb Bettoney stencil) is also 19mm.
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on August 24, 2017, 02:07:11 PM
With measurements all over the place, does this mean that the articulated C# was actually nothing special, since metal clarinets were doing it too?
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 24, 2017, 02:25:02 PM
Bettoney seems to have taken maximum advantage of the single tube design to move the tone hole downward. I'd say that the 19mm that we see on the Bettoney models and stencils is probably an optimization point.
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 26, 2017, 12:51:07 PM
Getting back to the Amati clarinets, I came across another maker in Austria, Musica Steyr, that could very plausibly have a connection to Amati, Kraslice. The key work is just too similar to have an entirely different origin, regardless of the country of manufacture. Compare the details of this Musica Steyr soprano with the Amati clarinets and known stencils. The only thing I see different in the key shapes is the C# key arm. The ring arms and other details are much the same. Late Amati clarinets also have a different C# key, more like this Musica Steyr example that is presumably Austrian in origin (photos borrowed for educational purposes):

Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 29, 2017, 02:24:27 AM
This is an Amati with a later logo style. By this time the ring arms have a more standard appearance and the trill guide and C# key on the upper joint match the Musica Steyr.
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: Silversorcerer on August 30, 2017, 01:57:07 PM
Apparently the type with the more vintage keys, exemplified by the minimalist ring key arms and the cool straight across C# key arm was marketed in the UK as the Corton clarinet. While these are so smooth and uniformly black that they look like they could be plastic, these are wooden clarinets upon close inspection. I don't know how these play, but all of them I have seen in used condition still looked very well preserved. These must be quite durable. While the plating is often worn, the key metal underneath looks to be better than average.
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on September 02, 2017, 10:42:39 PM
Here's a Carl Fischer with that Amati cartouche thing:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carl-Fischer-Artist-Wooden-Bb-Soprano-Clarinet-w-HSC-Made-In-Czechoslovakia/122683030880?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

Very cheap so far, could be a nice pickup.
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: DaveLeBlanc on September 12, 2017, 05:46:13 PM
Here is the first clarinet I have ever purchased from someone via Craigslist.
It is a "Luxus" by Amati Kraslice.
The kicker here is the rare third ring and the rare left hand Ab key. Both are features that make this one step above the rest of the crew.

Also managed to get a really neat F. Arthur Uebel mouthpiece. I've never seen one of these before so I made a dedicated post about it.



Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: Dennis on October 02, 2017, 06:21:23 AM
I have discovered that "Lignatone" was a stencil name for Amati products. They seem quite common, and had a large logo with a lion and a shield. I found them researching a full boehm Bb clarinet unbranded on the upper and lower joints, merely saying "Made in Czechoslovakia." The bell however was marked "Ligna." The font of the letter "L" is distinctive and matches the L on the Ligna. At first I thought it was a Kohlert. Has anyone seen a "Ligna"? The case appears to be from the 20's or 30's, but Lignatone seems to be from the 70's and 80's.

A puzzle to me is that both Amati and Kohlert used the phrase "Made in Czechoslovakia." This indicates that they were aimed at English speaking markets....
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: Silversorcerer on October 03, 2017, 12:43:48 PM
I f some one can save and post a photo? I can't do it from the iPad. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Klarinette-Lignatone-mit-Mundstuck-und-Koffer-Frankreich-System-/292271022382?hash=item440cb5e12e:g:zWUAAOSw47dZwS4l
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: mechanic on October 03, 2017, 02:57:32 PM
I f some one can save and post a photo? I can't do it from the iPad. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Klarinette-Lignatone-mit-Mundstuck-und-Koffer-Frankreich-System-/292271022382?hash=item440cb5e12e:g:zWUAAOSw47dZwS4l

Here you go. 
Title: Re: Amati Kraslice and stencils
Post by: mechanic on October 03, 2017, 03:00:25 PM
And a few more.