The ClarinetPages Forum

Quote from: shmuelyosef on July 28, 2017, 01:36:38 PM
On a different note as well regarding all these clarinets. Are the bores and/or toneholes machined? or are they just shipped as they come out of the molds?

The bores are as-molded, toneholes are machined. At some point in the mid-60s, the open hole chimneys on the lower joint became pressed-in inserts.

I've compared my Normandy Special and Noblet 45 against an assortment of Normandy Reso-Tones and 1960s Vitos. I don't see the differences you're describing. The only thing of note I see relating to those keys is that for a short time in the early '60s, the E/B touchpiece got noticeably shorter, but reverted back after a few years.

Being engraved "Pan American Model" instead of just "Pan-American" is an indication of a very early model - no later than 1922, I believe.

Quote from: Silversorcerer on June 01, 2017, 05:08:47 PM
I wonder if model 167 is a metal clarinet?

Yes, it was a metal American, the later style with art-deco engraving.

Pictures of the two metal American engraving styles I've seen are below. I don't think the change in engraving quite correlates to Harry Pedler reclaiming the rights to his name, since the guarantee bond above still says Harry Pedler & Co. There is a gap in American models in my notes, the highest plain engraving is 15711 and the lowest art-deco is 22xxx.

Quote from: Silversorcerer on May 31, 2017, 10:59:57 PM
One thing I noticed was that the metal clarinets listed did not have a letter prefix serial. That is curious. We need more of those metal serials to know how many of the metal ones that applies to.

Out of 77 metal Pedler clarinets I've recorded, none have a letter prefix in the serial.

Quote from: mechanic on May 31, 2017, 07:53:48 PM
"All over the map" might be a gross understatement.  How about a Reso-Tone 2 with standard offset trill keys?
https://www.shopgoodwill.com/viewItem.asp?ItemID=40142976
No serial number visible or in the listing.

That's normal. The Reso II and Reso-Tone 2 had offset trill keys to separate them as cheaper models. I'm sure Leblanc ultimately concluded that spending extra money to make a second type of keywork for a less-profitable instrument wasn't a worthwhile endeavor.

What I've seen suggests that each serial number prefix is of a separate sequence.

The highest number for each series that I've recorded:

51897
E36606
P19356
W19506
A3677
G1873

The warranty cards above confirm that 23000 is 1937 or earlier, and E20000 is after WWII. The date marked on the second one is probably the sale date, but there's no way any pre-war stock was left unsold. The Premier sale date I mentioned earlier suggests P8600 to be in the early 1940s.

I have two other cards in my research archive for Ebonite clarinets, both with Harry Pedler's signature.

Ah, I saw "throat" and thought you meant A and Ab. Nevertheless, that appears to be a difference worth studying as well.

For what it's worth, all of mine from the Custombuilt to the Grenolite have the trill keys on four sets of posts. I've noticed that lower-grade metal clarinets (Student, Hoosier, and the early American) have shared posts for the low E/B and F#/C# levers.

Below are a couple of Martin-era warranty cards, one is the dated one I mentioned above. The J.O. Thompson whose name appears on them became sales manager of Martin in December 1931 when management was reshuffled after O.P. Bassett passed away. He was mentioned as being with Pedler in 1937, and the 1940 census listed him as vice president of "Pedler Band Factory". If enough examples of these cards are found, whose signature appears when may lead to something.

No, the card wasn't dated. It's one of the punch-style ones and has a ZIP code in the address, although post-1963 is pretty much a given for it anyway. I don't think I've ever seen a Leblanc warranty card with a date.

I think the Premiere and Premier were completely different models, actually. The Premiere was marketed as a student instrument and I've only seen them in metal. The Premier seems to be only wood, and the existence of a 7-ring variant suggests it was more up-market. Considering the definitions of each word, that seems the most plausible. Unfortunate choice by the marketing department though.

All of my Pedlers have a shared post for the throat keys, but I noticed something important - earlier models have the rods for both keys in the same plane (i.e. the threaded ends could intersect) like a Bundy, later models have the Ab rod set above the A rod, like a Conn. My American and Premier (both from the '30s) have the older style while the Ebonite, Custombuilt, and Grenolite have the newer style.

I have a photo of a guarantee bond of a Model 157, serial no. E20675, with "8/21/47" written in the upper margin. Without any context I couldn't put much stock in it before, but knowing that revised keywork had probably appeared by this point we might have E20000 as a rough starting point for postwar production.

Yes, I have a '77 Cutlass.

Leblanc USA seems to have used a different sequence for every variation until 1970 or thereabouts when they rolled it into one series for all plastic clarinets. I think the early Holtons had their own as well (a $15 Holton Collegiate started this for me in the first place).

Here's what appears in the price lists I have:

1974

7112	Reso-Tone 3	$189.50
7112Eb	Reso-Tone 3	$209.50
7114	Lyre	$199.50
7114D	"Deluxe Outfit"	$219.50
7114P	Plateau	$275.00
7115	Stubbins	$214.50
7118	Semi-plateau	$219.50
7177	VSP	$299.50
7100	"Sonnet"	$182.50

Carry-all case $10.00

1976

7112	Reso-Tone 3	$199.50
7112Eb	Reso-Tone 3	$235.00
7114	Lyre	$214.50
7114P	Plateau	$305.00
7115	Stubbins	$257.50
7118	Semi-plateau	$255.00
7177	VSP	$335.00
7100	"Sonnet"	$194.50
7110	"Sonnet"	$194.50

Carry-all case $12.00, Vandoren mouthpiece $15.00

1977

7112	Reso-Tone 3	$209.50
7112Eb	Reso-Tone 3	"On request"
7114	Lyre	$224.50
7114P	Plateau	$314.50
7115	Stubbins	$269.50
7116	"Reso-Dyne"	$229.50
7118	Semi-plateau	$239.50
7177	VSP	$350.00

Carry-all case $12.00, Vandoren mouthpiece $15.00
Holton clarinets were re-introduced in 1977.

I have no idea what the "Sonnet" is. I've searched and never found anything of the sort. The "Reso-Dyne" has a brushed "wooden" finish and I'm guessing it's otherwise the same as the Lyre model. The Stubbins and semi-plateau were Reso-Tone 3 models.

Glad to be of help. I have a lot of raw data (list of instruments) that I can work on processing/interpreting. Admittedly, my research is heavily biased towards the Martin era as mine are from that period.

I own five Pedlers, so if there's any details I can examine just ask. An Ebonite E21xxx, wood Premier 18/7 P43xx, metal American 22xxx, metal Custombuilt 46xxx, and a plastic GrenOlite G10xx.

Quote from: Windsong on April 25, 2017, 06:32:58 PM
As far as I am aware, no true Harry Pedler clarinets (1919-1930) were ever adorned with a serial number, and some were not even engraved at all--even with his name, during the earliest years.  The standing exception is that BBb models may have been serialized early in their production.  Until disproven, it is a cautious measure to operate under the calculated assumption that the serial number process began across the model spectrum when Martin Band Instrument Company took the reins in 1930.

I believe this to be at least partially incorrect. I've recorded a number of serialized Pedler metal clarinets that have every appearance of being made prior to the Martin era. The Premiere model, which was introduced in 1928, begins about where expected and I've never seen one (nor any other metal Pedler) without a serial. It's quite plausible that serialization began in the latter half of the 1920s rather than upon the Martin purchase.

I've noticed that metal Pedlers after a certain point have beveled toneholes. I'd have to surmise that those were influenced by Martin saxophones. Other notes I have:

The Pedler metal bass was introduced in March 1930 at the Music Supervisors' National Conference. This was the same month that Martin purchased Pedler. Multiple sources state that Pedler was operated as a separate entity after the purchase.

The Music Trades Review reported in April 1931 that the Pedlers had resigned from the company.

I've made note of a Premier (not Premiere) serial no. P8654 that was sold on 6-20-1942 for $121.

I wrote the blog page referenced earlier which has apparently caused confusion. I can answer any questions on that, but I'll start with some Vitos I've kept notes of that have crossed my bench in one form or another.

Vito Reso-Tone
4983E (Big V logo)
9946F (oval logo)

Vito Reso II
1427

Reso-Tone 3
21550 (with original warranty card)
35482
55300
C77639

Clari-Tone
3914 (oval logo)

Lyre logo
A29658


I can partly clear up the model number confusion earlier in the thread. The model numbers in the '70s and early '80s were actually 7112 and 7114 according to price lists. They were changed to 7212 and 7214 when the serial numbers were reset in 1984. The latter ones have the model number stamped next to the serial number, the former do not.

Two positively-confirmed dates: The "Reso II" was trademarked as having been first used in commerce (meaning either when the name was first applied to a product, or when the so-named product was first shipped from the factory) December 27, 1962. The Clari-Tone name was first used July 21, 1964.

I can't find any evidence of the Clari-Tone in the 1974 price list, but the VSP is there. I've noted Clari-Tone serial numbers from 0968 through 8867, all with the oval stamping, and then one at 91358 which might have had a very faint lyre logo above the Claritone name, and the "swoopy" C trill key.

I've recorded examples of the original Reso-Tone from 3054E to 9745J, the Reso II from 1427 to 3069, the Reso-Tone 2 from 01443 to 15686, and the Reso-Tone 3 from 05727 up. The earliest Lyre logo I've seen is at A25474. The early ones had only the outline of the lyre engraved, as opposed to the thick stamping that most had.

Not to muddy the waters by getting the Normandy involved, but I'm 100% certain that there was a great deal of Normandy production before the Vito clarinets were introduced. The keywork differences and the clear difference in the type of plastic used in the first run of Normandy models confirm it in my mind, along with the fact that the first Vitos appear with serial numbers in the middle of the second Normandy series.

Sorry for the novel; hope this brings more clarity than confusion...