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Messages - 350 Rocket

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I suspect what you have is one of the very first Collegiates made after Holton was acquired by Leblanc. Does it say "Frank Holton & Co." or just "Holton" with fancy detailing? I have one of those very early ones plus a couple of the latter.

They built two models, the CL-630 which was the same as the standard Vito, and the CL-633 which was the same as the Vito Reso II (offset trill keys instead of inline).

Trading Post / Re: Good stuff on ebay
« on: February 28, 2018, 02:54:28 PM »
Thanks for the info.
Do you think the seller is purposefully trying to scam potential buyers? If so, I can report the item to eBay for fraud.
It would be good if others could as well to add fuel to the case.

Well... that's a bit of an issue. The seller is a music store and repair shop that is notorious for building "parts-bin" instruments and then being evasive about their true nature. The likelihood of this being intentionally misrepresented is quite high. But without any legally defensible way to prove it (and even posting their name is fraught with risk) all you can really do is send out the warning for the most flagrant instances, like this one. Besides, I've heard that eBay doesn't pay much heed to reported items.

Trading Post / Re: Good stuff on ebay
« on: February 27, 2018, 07:36:06 PM »
Thanks for the warning.
Just a thought-did student models often have a low F adjustment screw?
They did - all H.N. White metal Boehm clarinets that I've seen have the regulation screw on the low F.

Trading Post / Re: Good stuff on ebay
« on: February 27, 2018, 07:04:57 PM »
Scam alert!

I stumbled across this little hack job this evening. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Silver-King-Clarinet-Sterling-Silver-Bell/273035801999

This is a 1950s American Standard student-model clarinet with an earlier Silver King bell grafted on, being passed off as a genuine Silver King.

All about Clarinets / Re: Noblet DN SN: 1016
« on: February 16, 2018, 07:18:28 PM »
"DN" isn't a model, just a description of the logo - the superimposed D and N (for Denis Noblet). Leblanc eventually stopped using "D. Noblet" or "DN", and if any letter appeared it was just N. The change probably happened in the mid-'60s. My Noblet 45 is from 1965 and still has the "DN"; the 1966 price list shows the 45's diamond-shaped logo and the "trimmed oval" 40 logo each with the lone "N", and nearly all of the Noblet clarinets I've seen that are newer than mine have that.

That case looks like a Leblanc/Noblet case from the '50s, and given the low serial number and other details yours would seem to be a 1950s instrument. Late 1940s is probably a possibility as well. I don't know for sure, but it's probably a model 40.

Is it possible that the "N" serial is somehow aberrant? With such a high number it seems unlikely that there's 25,000 clarinets out there so prefixed and only one would surface compared with other Pedlers.

Your conclusions on the others mirror my own.

and we know for a fact that the last Pedler clarinet was made in 1956
This is a piece of information I've been searching for for some time. What's the source?

If it helps, here's the starting and ending serials for every Pedler model I've recorded.

"Made by Harry Pedler & Co." professional model: 2847, 10075
"Made by Harry Pedler & Co." bass: 11490
Premiere : 3888, 15704
American, "Harry Pedler & Co.": 10728, 15711
American, art-deco "bundle of wheat" engraving (model 167): 22924, 23603
400: 13734
Precision Hand Made: 13935
Paramount: 15437, 15966
Hoosier: 19316, 44267
Student: 22741, 30699
Custombuilt metal clarinet: 31065, 48431
Custombuilt metal bass: 31964
Custombuilt metal alto: 45119
No model, plain block script: 48356, 51897

"A" serials
American: A1110, A3677

No model marking: E4891, E36606
Hoosier: E1430, E12418
Custombuilt bass: E3305, E13982
American: E17014, E17185

G1077, G1873

Premier: P2437, P8760
Special: P4338
No model marked: P12885, P19356

No model marked: W105, W11130
Custombuilt bass: W2549, W19506
Custombuilt alto: W6637
Pennant: W3290

I separate the metal American models because the art-deco engraving lacks "Harry Pedler & Co." However, the guarantee card for 23603 still has that name. It's plausible that after the rights to the name transferred from Martin to Harry Pedler, Martin was still using up the old stationery. The wood American model has a similar change but I've seen too few examples.

It appears that the Pennant was the final model made by MBIC, bearing the Pedler name.  Have you been able to determine (or take an educated guess on) the composition of these?  They appear neither to be exclusively hard rubber or resonite, but perhaps a combination of the two?  Babbitt makes 50/50 formulas, and I have to assume other manufacturers experimented with various polymer/rubber hybrids, as well.
I did my usual degreaser soak to clean the body and there was no discoloration at all. The upper joint has a very distinct seam on top tenon where the two halves of the mold met. There's some slight chipping/flaking around the serial number stampings and the leaf spring channels which also indicates plastic. It looks very much like the same kind of phenolic resin you'd find in a plastic Normandy or Bundy of the era. No hard rubber-like smell that I can detect.

I've only found three and a half Grenolites for sale in total. I was lucky to win the auction on this one.

The others were:
G1579   not verified in photo
G1799   Grenolite/Pennant   Pennant on upper joint, Grenolite on barrel
G1873   Grenolite   upper joint only

And then there's the Pennant with a higher serial number posted earlier in this thread.

Straight bore, measuring at .585".

I've started the overhaul process on my Grenolite. Note the matching stampings on the upper joint and barrel but the pennant logo on the bell. I've also seen at least one that had the pennant on the upper joint. The barrel on mine is glossy, "modern"-looking plastic. The main body joints are slightly less so, while the bell has an almost satin-ish look to it, kind of like a '50s plastic Normandy.

If anyone has any specific questions, ask. Overall, the keywork seems sturdier and much more generously plated than that of either my late '30s Premier or my late '40s Ebonite.

All about Clarinets / Re: Harry Bettoney - The Cundy-Bettoney Co.
« on: December 20, 2017, 06:33:45 PM »
(Did BMIC originally manufacture the Boston "Wonder" clarinet? The silver one I own says "Pat. Pending" below the mouthpiece -  ser. no. 4-83  under the lower register keyword and  "Boston Wonder" identified on the bell as TRADE MARK reg'd U.S. Pat. Off.)
Bettoney trademarked the "Boston Wonder" name in 1927, with a claim of first use at the beginning of that year. The Music Trades Review also indicates that the metal Boston Wonder was introduced in 1927, so no, BMIC didn't build the clarinets originally.

All about Clarinets / Re: Conn bore question
« on: November 11, 2017, 08:30:50 AM »
Odd.  Aggregious error, perhaps?
That's what I thought with the '58, but when I found the other two to be identical, I expected it had to be intentional.

The 16N plays wonderfully for a plastic clarinet. So well that, even though I bought it to repair and resell, I decided to keep it. Conn seemed to have spent a lot of effort designing and engineering it, it seems odd that they'd've overlooked something as fundamental as the bore.

All about Clarinets / Conn bore question
« on: November 05, 2017, 06:29:53 PM »
There's something I've long wondered about Conn clarinets. I have three Conn student models (1958 composite 14N or 50N, 1961 wood 18N, and a 1964 16N) and all three have a bore diameter of .605" at the top of the upper joint and .590" at the bottom. However, while the barrels are .590" at the top they're no more than .585" at the bottom. When assembled there is a visible "step" in the bore where the barrel meets the upper joint. The 16N's barrel is definitely original, the other two can't be positively confirmed but the socket rings match.

What is this considered? Reverse taper? Polycylindrical? What's the reason for an immediate .020" or so difference where the barrel and upper joint meet?

All about Clarinets / Re: Unmarked clarinet
« on: October 27, 2017, 04:30:09 PM »
I believe that's an Artley from the early '90s.

I appreciate your perspective, and perhaps you are right.  I know nothing of patent law, or the legalities of securing a patent post-production and implementation.  My take on it was that things were heating up, so to speak, and he felt that if he did not secure a patent, he would lose the rights to the invention.
I don't either, but this Bettoney ad might shed light on something:

But if the Pedlers left in 1931, this would indicate that Harry Pedler was still required to assign his patents to his former company.

And even so, H.N. White was building clarinets with that mechanism before 1930, so if there was any agreement to allow White to use it, it would've been with Mr. Pedler alone.

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