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Author Topic: Vintage clarinet  (Read 10435 times)

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Vintage clarinet
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2016, 06:13:48 AM »
That looks to be in very nice condition. There are some similarities in the key work to certain Pedler models I have seen, but these might not be definitive. It certainly looks related to Pedler in the style of the trills on the upper joint and the way the key cluster for RH5 is arranged. I can find similar key work examples of each area on Pedler clarinets, but not all on one Pedler together.

It would be good to see a few more Hoosiers like it and see if these are all made the same way. This one looks like a basic pads and corks fix up would make it a good player.
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline Scottlein

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Re: Vintage clarinet
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2016, 06:53:25 AM »
Yeah I didn't think looked too bad. Do you have anymore ideas about the serial number? It would be cool to find out for sure of the year.

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Vintage clarinet
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2016, 07:07:30 AM »
The serialization by itself doesn't tell me much yet about the date, but it's worth noting. One of the key work details points to later than earlier and that is the "T" shaped bridge coupler on the lower joint. That typically means post war period.
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Offline Scottlein

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Re: Vintage clarinet
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2016, 07:26:38 AM »
Post war meaning it was made in the late 40s or early 50s?
If you find anymore out about let me know. Thank you for the info so far I'm excited to find out even more.

Offline Scottlein

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Re: Vintage clarinet
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2016, 04:16:17 PM »
hi Silversorcerer i was wondering if you were able to find out anyother info on the Hoosier.

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Vintage clarinet
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2016, 10:03:36 PM »
My personal view on the Hoosier clarinets is that these are Pedler clarinets. However informed it might be, it is still just my best guess at this point. There are enough similarities in the key work that I think it is not so plausible that there was a different maker for these. It is odd that it is not marked Pedler. Most of the Pedler models have both the model and Pedler on them somewhere.

As far as the date of manufacture, I need to see a lot more of these and more late Pedler clarinets. The serialization without any letters is significant, but I don't know what it means. Unfortunately there is no registry of Pedler serials or good records. There are a few well founded rumors, but I keep finding exceptions to these rumors. Here is one tidbit I found and it is important because there is also no letter in the serial number and it is also a high number: "Sep 23, 2013 ... Description, Vintage Pedler Hoosier Clarinet in Hard Case. Manufacturer/ Markings, Elkhart, ind. Serial Number, 45316."  Unfortunately no photos are available but I can tell from the dimensions and description that this was one of the metal Pedler Hoosier models, not one made of wood. We must assume also that the letter was not there. Some people will report a serial number and leave the letter off because it isn't a digit. That's how it goes, but at least we have another example that is similar. Two is a good story. Three would hold up in court maybe.

I am keeping up with a few of these serial numbers and so far the letters might mean something. All of the wooden Pedler Americans (that I have seen) have an A prefix. The hard rubber Hoosier Pedler I have has an E before the number, but all of these that I have seen up close have a letter.

So no letter stands out and means something. It might mean something about the date. Perhaps at some point Pedler changed the serialization, and maybe more than once. The key work details tell me more. That "T" shaped bridge tab on the lower joint is later. I would say 40s or 50s but I can't be more specific. In general there are key work details that are time markers, but they don't take place all at once and different company's change things at different times. Around the turn of the century front register keys started going away. But they were still around on some makes 20 years later. The bridge tab is that kind of detail. I've never seen one on a pre-war clarinet, but I don't know when any specific company adopted these, except maybe Conn because I have some made both ways that aren't too far apart. Without some kind of master serial list, that is the only way I know to get closer to knowing when something was made. One has to have some kind of document, warranty registration, sales receipt;- something that has a date on it. If there were any reed envelopes in the case when you got the Hoosier, those might tell you something. Some clarinets I know when they were sold fairly accurately because I could find the history of the music store that sold the player the last reeds that were used. So if you have something like that;- some scrap of information that corresponds to a date, that is how to narrow it down.

I usually ask the people I buy from where and how they got the instruments they sell. Usually it is an estate sale. Sometimes you can find out something significant, sometimes not. I have had several really good detective story experiences researching instruments or books. One copy of Arban's method (cornet and trumpet) that I bought had the previous owners name almost completely erased. It was very light, but the name and address was there. I photographed it and imported it into software and increased the contrast enough so that I could read it. Turns out that the fellow was a vegetable wagon driver who played in a town band in New England and I found a newspaper article about an accident he had that broke his leg. So I know who studied from that book and when. One clarinet I have has the owner's name engraved on it and I found out he was born in 1895. If he played the instrument in high school, that tells me something about the date of that one.

The person who has possession of an instrument is most likely to have the clues necessary to date it, even if they don't know they have those clues. It starts with who you obtained it from and what led to it changing hands. Since most people that play musical instruments purchase one for use in a school band, and many school instruments are still in the original owner's possession when they die, knowing the birth and death record of the previous owner can pinpoint the date of manufacture pretty close. It might sound a bit macabre, but I know beyond any doubt that most of the instruments I am now playing were last played by people who are dead. And I am probably not going to take the instruments with me either.

Get the Hoosier fixed and play it. It might tell you more than I can.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 10:22:12 PM by Silversorcerer »
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline Scottlein

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Re: Vintage clarinet
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2016, 07:38:29 AM »
Thank you Silversorcerer I appreciate very much the info.

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Vintage clarinet
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2016, 10:26:13 PM »
I'll keep my eye out for other instruments marked Hoosier and eventually we will have enough of them to know when they were made. When I find it. I'll update the thread here. Today I saw a Hoosier flute that also looks like a Pedler instrument and it is also serialized with a number only, fairly high number also. The case that is with it looks like a 1950s - 1960s era case.
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline Scottlein

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Re: Vintage clarinet
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2016, 08:34:15 AM »
Wow that is interesting. i am wondering if these are transition instraments i did find a little info on Pedler and that the comapany did get bought out a couple of times but Pedler was still involved in the company. i dont recall if it were LeBlank or Bundy or another name brand that was familiar to me that bought his company. so transition from Pedler to to the new comany. the case on mine i belive is from the Fifties as well because it is similar to my 52 Conn just longer by a couple inches. this case has an extra spot for a sedond mouth piece or and extra barrel. im noy sure the reason for the extra barrel. i have only ever seen one with a clarinet till i looked on line the other day and saw one with 2. thank you again Scott

Offline DaveLeBlanc

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Re: Vintage clarinet
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2016, 08:50:01 AM »
Extra barrels are player preference. Sometimes, the real good players find that one barrel woks better with a certain type of music or with certain instruments. I can't tell jack from Jill myself, though.
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Offline Scottlein

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Re: Vintage clarinet
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2016, 12:56:09 PM »
are they different lengths to change the intonation?

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Vintage clarinet
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2016, 03:50:05 PM »
Ultimately the Pedler Company was bought by H&A Selmer of Elkhart. I am not sure about the date of that. Late 1950s or early 1960s? Are the early wooden Bundy clarinets actually Pedlers? Prior to that Pedler Woodwinds was owned by Martin Band Instrument Company, and before that it was Harry Pedler and prior to that, Harry Pedler in partnership. Harry Pedler originally (in this country) built clarinets for C.G. Conn. This has me wondering if the early hard rubber Conn clarinets are "early" Harry Pedler designs? Pedler was a proponent of hard rubber clarinets and most of the early Conn clarinets I have seen are hard rubber. In any case, the Hoosier clarinets seem to owe most of their characteristics to Pedler.

I tend to think that if there were changes in the serialization method that it is plausible that this occurred when the company changed hands. The Hoosier flute that I found is very much a Pedler in the way it is constructed. Few flutes have the posts directly mounted on the flute tube. Most have a rail that the posts are attached to and then the entire rail assembly is fitted to the tube. Pedlers have no rail and the Hoosier flute has no rails. Bettoney also made flutes without rails early on, but Bettoney has other characteristics that the Hoosier does not. I think the Hoosier instruments;- even those not marked Pedler;- were made in the Pedler factory.

The relationships between the various Elkhart manufacturers are complex with ownership and partnerships overlapping throughout the history. Most of the companies there were founded by former Conn employees. Elkhart is the Markneukirchen of the United States.
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Vintage clarinet
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2016, 03:56:26 PM »
are they different lengths to change the intonation?
More or less, if they are just different lengths. I have seen clarinets that came with as many as four barrels. They don't get good mileage but 0-60 is impressive.  ;)

Seriously, I have seen a couple that had four original barrels and spaces in the case for all four of them. I have yet to use more than one barrel with my clarinets. I suppose you could say they are barrel challenged, but I think all of the ones I play regularly at least have an original barrel.

I just did obtain one that came with two original barrels. We'll see what that is about. I think one or the other will work best. It probably does depend somewhat on choice of mouthpiece and reed or the other instruments in an ensemble. The weather might make a bigger difference. Maybe one works better depending on the weather.
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline Scottlein

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Re: Vintage clarinet
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2016, 04:04:34 PM »
it will be interesting to see how they work out. with the info about Pedler working for Conn i will have to put my Conn next to the Hoosier and compaire the 2.

Offline Scottlein

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Re: Vintage clarinet
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2016, 08:22:06 PM »
I was able to compair my Conn with the Hoosier and there are some similarities between the 2 but more so on the lower valve assembly. But my Conn was made in Germany. Also looked at the case a little closer of the Hoosier and there is a small plate in the handle well that says  Turner Musical Instruments Limited. I'm also not sure it is wooden. After comparing it to the Conn that is wood it may be of the hard rubber type.