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Author Topic: Vintage Ullmann leipzig clarinet hinge pins  (Read 5575 times)

Offline abellows

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Vintage Ullmann leipzig clarinet hinge pins
« on: September 17, 2016, 04:23:49 PM »
I just bought this clarinet off of eBay because it appeared to have interesting pins going through the the key posts, and I was correct. Have any of you seen the use of this type of pivot pin rather than the more common threaded type?

Offline DaveLeBlanc

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Re: Vintage Ullmann leipzig clarinet hinge pins
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2016, 06:15:14 PM »
Once, on an old Fox bassoon. It was kinda cool and I prefer them to screws for ease of operation.
David Watson of the original The Clarinet Pages
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Offline Windsong

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Re: Vintage Ullmann leipzig clarinet hinge pins
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2016, 09:15:42 PM »
Quote
Have any of you seen the use of this type of pivot pin rather than the more common threaded type?

Yes.  I have come to know this as the prevailing method of pinning keys on Czechoslovakian clarinets, 1880s and prior.  I know of no other country that used this technique, and in fact, it may have been a signature trademark of precious few makers.  Have 2 such adorned clarinets. 

Leipzig is in Germany, but is only about 160 miles from Prague, and as both cities have been European hubs for several hundred years, the explanations for the discrepancy are endless, and speculative.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2016, 09:56:38 PM by Windsong »
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Offline DaveLeBlanc

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Re: Vintage Ullmann leipzig clarinet hinge pins
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2016, 10:48:36 PM »
Can't find pix of that Fox, but here's a Monarch as well as some unmarked something that have those hingey things.
David Watson of the original The Clarinet Pages
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Offline abellows

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Re: Vintage Ullmann leipzig clarinet hinge pins
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2016, 10:44:47 AM »
Thank you for the information!

  I am currently researching Ullmann to see if there is any correlation with Reinhold Oskar Ullmann, from Leipzig. Reinhold Oskar Ullmann worked for Penzel starting in 1903. He was born in Leipzig and was the son of Gustav Erhard Ullmann who was a wind instrument maker. It seems that he specialized in Trombones.

Here is some info about Penzel/Ullmann

 Langwill Index, citation below

 Penzel, Johann August (d Lubeck 31 October 1873). WWI fl Lubeck 19c.
 BIBLIOGRAPHY: Hennings 1951.

 ---------
 Penzel, Christoph Friedrich (d ?1896) WWI fl Markneukirchen late 19c.
 BIBLIOGRAPHY: 4/716.705,20.691.
 ---------
 Penzel, G.L., & Bro. WWI fl New York 1882-1998.
 Established 1881 in Germany by the brothers Gustav Ludwig ('Louis') (b Germany 4 October 1855; d New York 27 May 1920) and Gustav F. ('Frederick') Penzel; 1882, on immigration, transferred to New York; 1898 joined by their relative E.G. Muller; 1899 succeeded by PENZEL & MULLER. Spet in flute (4k-6k models) and clarinet, especially German system.
 MARK: [a] (American eagle with downturned wings) / G.L. PENZEL / & BRO. / NEW YORK '(eagle), G.L. Penzel, New York' ADDRESS: 1882-84: 216 Sixth Avenue; 1885-99: 368 Bowery.
 ---------
 Penzel & Muller (Mueller) WWI fl New York 1899 pl 1950.
 1899 established as partnership between G.L. PENZEL and Edward Georg Muller (b Germany 1869; d New York 6 November 1956); from 1920 as 'Penzel & Mueller'; 1920-55 Mueller served as company President, retiring 1925 from production work and building the firm into the leading American maker of standard WWI lines; his sons Walter and Gustave were also active in the firm. From c1920-1935 the firm owned the A.G. BADGER CO.; 1946 the firm Of CLOOS was acquired. Employed trade name 'Empire State'; see also LAUBIN, PRUEFER, W.S. RICHARDS.
 MARK: [a: 1899-1920] (American eagle) / G.L. PENZEL & MUELLER / NEW YORK / [b: from 1920] PENZEL-MUELLER / NEW YORK
 ADDRESS: 1899: 368 Bowery; 11)01-216 Cooper Square: 1921-70 31-11, 33rd St, Long Island City, NY.
 INVENTION: application of "Nicolene' (nickel-silver alloy) for WWI keys.
 PATENT: 1899 (US) #023422 (G.L. Penzel and E.G. Mueller): improved 'simplesystem' clarinet mechanism.
 BIBLIOGRAPHY: Farrar in NAMIS 7.3, 8.1(1989). AMIS committee (private communication).
 ---------
 Penzel, J.C. BI fl Leipzig 1842-1880.
 1842 established by Johann Christoph (b Elster/ Adorf 15 March 1817; d Leipzig 5 May 1879) as successor to C.F. SATTLER, whose daughter he had married. Trombone spet. 1879 his son Christoph Hermann Robert (b 1947; d 1880) became his successor, but only survived him by one year. Both SCHOPPER and (2) 0. ULLMANN were each later to call themselves his successor; however the former opened nine years, the latter 23 years after Penzel's death, both at different addresses.
 MARK: 'J.C. Penzel, sonst C.F. Sattler'
 LOCATION: tenor trombone: D-Leipzig: 3303; bass trombone: D-Berlin: 28 [X].
 BIBLIOGRAPHY: Heyde 1980b.
 ---------
 Directories of the period create some confusion about the Penzel brothers. There are references to Gustav L. and Gustav F. , as well as Louis G. and Fred G. in the years between 1882 and 1896. These probably are the same two men who were Louis, the senior, and Frederick, the junior brother—one who quite probably died about 1896 or returned to Germany. It would be exciting to connect these brothers to the Sattler-Penæl-Ullmann dynasty in Leipzig, which dated back to the 1760's



So my search begins,


Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Vintage Ullmann leipzig clarinet hinge pins
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2016, 01:31:21 PM »
Cool that someone posting here got the Ullman. I had seen that one but didn't look close enough to notice the rods. That's a great find for numerous of its' characteristics. The first one I saw with rods like that like that was an early Uebel;- gorgeous instrument but I let it get away. 

Most of the recorders I see with keys don't have screw in rods. There is really not much chance of a rod coming out against gravity so the threads are somewhat redundant. It a way, the threads are actually wrapped inclined planes that incrementally allow a screw to back out. No inclined plane;- no force operating parallel to the rod length. From an engineering standpoint, the friction of the total inclined plane must be greater than the friction of the rod in the tube. When it isn't, the screw backs out. If there is little friction in the treads then it is the friction in the rod and tube one direction or rotation, then the return. The first one is against spring tension, so more friction. It ends up working like a ratchet. If there are no threads, the tube spins on the rod or the rod spins in the post. Who cares which one? There's no inclined plane. So the only force that can pull one of these rods is gravity perhaps, which means the friction in the tube need only be greater than the gravity on the rod, which is very likely unless the rod is too loose in the tube to really work tight.

On a Cabart I have that had a bent tube and stuck rod, I had to drill the rod out partially so I could get that key off to straighten the tube. When I put it back I made a temporary similar rod from a wire brad. It works so well I might not bother replacing the treaded rod. I did have to file the end so it would fit into the threaded post. Brad metal is soft. It filed down very easily and slips in the threaded post without damaging the threads.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 02:08:09 PM by Silversorcerer »
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Offline Windsong

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clarinet hinge pins
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2016, 04:41:28 PM »
Inclined planes...best when used to anchor something requiring a set torque that will not be constantly rotating back and forth, over and over again.  Look at door hinges.  Even really, really robust door hinges.  They swing back and forth, back and forth, and they last for a very long time.  When was the last time any of us had to hammer a pin back in place unless it was to reinstall a door?  ANSWER:  Never.  I'd be inclined (pardon the pun) to say that gravity is a factor, but I've installed hinges upside down, inadvertantly, been too lazy to switch them, and never had a pin back out.  It just doesn't happen.
Pins are good, and like you say, Sorcerer--who cares whether they anchor to the post or the key?  As long as they don't do both, all is well.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 08:49:09 PM by Windsong »
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Offline abellows

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Re: Vintage Ullmann leipzig clarinet hinge pins
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2016, 06:57:53 PM »
Here are a few progress pics. She is coming along Nicely. I do love the thread less hinge pins, it is so easy to disassemble. Ive always wanted an older Eb, so I was really happy that there were no cracks once disassembled.

Offline Windsong

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Re: Vintage Ullmann leipzig clarinet hinge pins
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2016, 07:28:28 PM »
My goodness.  No moss grows beneath your feet, by gum!
Well done.
How are you polishing those keys?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 08:50:43 PM by Windsong »
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Offline DaveLeBlanc

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Re: Vintage Ullmann leipzig clarinet hinge pins
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2016, 07:37:33 PM »
There's only one way to improve something so perfect and that's with.... a gilded logo!
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Offline Airflyte

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Re: Vintage Ullmann leipzig clarinet hinge pins
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2016, 08:12:21 PM »
There's only one way to improve something so perfect and that's with.... a gilded logo!

Dave's right you know.
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Offline abellows

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Re: Vintage Ullmann leipzig clarinet hinge pins
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2016, 08:27:33 AM »
Before I Polish the keys I wash them off in diluted muratic acid to remove the heavy tarnish. Then I Polish them on my bench grinder and then buff with .5 micron diamond paste. It usually takes me about 1 hour to polish all the keys and posts. I try not to over Polish them, by removing every little scratch. The super high Polish softens up after a short bit, better matching the instrument IMHO.

Offline Windsong

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Re: Vintage Ullmann leipzig clarinet hinge pins
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2016, 09:01:44 AM »
Interesting.
Is this for all keys, or just German nickel?
Looking good!
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Offline DaveLeBlanc

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Re: Vintage Ullmann leipzig clarinet hinge pins
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2016, 10:51:06 AM »
Before I Polish the keys I wash them off in diluted muratic acid to remove the heavy tarnish. Then I Polish them on my bench grinder and then buff with .5 micron diamond paste. It usually takes me about 1 hour to polish all the keys and posts. I try not to over Polish them, by removing every little scratch. The super high Polish softens up after a short bit, better matching the instrument IMHO.
I've been elbow-greasing forever, but I'll definitely have to try your method.  I can see how much better your polishing looks!
David Watson of the original The Clarinet Pages
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Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Vintage Ullmann leipzig clarinet hinge pins
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2016, 02:58:48 PM »
This is looking really wonderful.  :)

Looks like that is a preferred key work clean-up method. Those look great;- should tarnish up nicely in due time.  ;)

It has been a question for me for quite a while how far to go with polishing the keys on the 19th century clarinets. Initially, I was going for a pretty uniform high polish on everything using only rouge to get there or Wright's. Oddly, I don't use Wright's on silver, but on the keys that aren't silver.

I have a clarinet with keys that were polished to a kind of satin look, which actually means the polish left a very fine scratch. It came that way. I don't use anything that is abrasive enough to do that when I polish keys. The last one I polished, I used only a cotton cloth with no actual polishing agents applied. That is a very slow way to polish metal, but allows one to stop at whatever point the desired result is reached without going past it. The tarnish on the nickel-silver gives the keys a kind of dull warmth, the color leaning a little yellow. Taken to clean metal, the color is neutral white metal. I do like a little bit of shine, but some preservation of that gold tint coloration the tarnish lends is something I find pleasing.

Of course metal does not stay brand new looking after a polishing for very long,                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
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