Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 

Author Topic: The "Harry"  (Read 10603 times)

Offline Windsong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1116
    • View Profile
Re: The "Harry"
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2017, 02:27:19 PM »
Very good to know, Sorcerer.  Judging from the rubber used, I believe that he took hard rubber seriously.  It has excellent finish on tight porosity.  I'd like to know with more certainty, why the lower joint was grafted--either from the factory or as a repair, but either way, it was exceptionally well done.
I'll be interested at some point to learn more about Conn's HR clarinets, and how they relate to Harry.
Regards-
Expert bubblegum welder, and Pedler Pedler.

Offline Silversorcerer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1373
    • View Profile
Re: The "Harry"
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2017, 05:03:13 PM »
That "graft" line is nearly invisible. Perhaps when the joint circumference was machined there was some hard particle stuck to the blade for a split second in the turning? It's completely insignificant and probably not a repair. That's a rare Harry. I have some examples of Martin era 7-ring models. Two were great players until I wore out the pads on them. I need to do some comparative photos of some of those but I think all the Pedler 7-ring models I have seen are slightly different.

Lisa's is identical to one that I paid far too much for or perhaps she got very lucky.

My guess is that your Harry might have indeed seen some military use. I doubt all of the clarinets in military use were brand new. I have seen several Martin era Pedlers that have US or USN marks;- a hard rubber Harry would have been well suited to that kind of use. At that time, according to an old brochure, that was the pro Harry model. They made Premier (intermediate) and an American (beginner) models as  well. Later, Martin used the same designations and others.

Here are some catalog illustrations of your Harry. It's the 177 ebonite model, I think. Even in the illustration the not-crowfoot is visible. Also there is a good photo of the description;- Grenadilla by special order on the soprano models. The altos and basses were made in rosewood. The same brochure has a section that I can't read but headlined "The popularity of Ebonite".
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline Silversorcerer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1373
    • View Profile
Re: The "Harry"
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2017, 05:16:42 PM »
Interesting catalog pages. I've had these images for ages and never noticed that there is an explanation of not only the ebonite process but also the "not crowfoot". Imagine that.   ;D This is also where I finally found out my mystery bass was a 201A model;- in rosewood. I think this brochure was from 1924. It appears from the description that the "not-crowfoot" might be a Pedler exclusive feature. I don't know if this is all the models or just some of them. I know at some point the Premier and American were introduced and it was before Martin took over.

Lisa's model would be a Martin version of the 207 model with a few extra goodies.

- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline Windsong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1116
    • View Profile
Re: The "Harry"
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2017, 06:07:16 PM »
Incredible, Sorcerer.  That brochure is priceless...absolutely priceless.  I have wondered why, since acquiring this Harry, why information seems so scarce. 

Because the rubber looks identical in hue on both sides of the "line", you may well be right about the fact that something hard got stuck in the turning machine.  I had never considered that, but I like that theory. 
Expert bubblegum welder, and Pedler Pedler.

Offline Lisa

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
    • View Profile
Re: The "Harry"
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2017, 07:21:46 PM »
Lisa's model would be a Martin version of the 207 model with a few extra goodies.
Thank you for identifying my clarinet, I do appreciate it!
Lisa
Lisa  Upper Michigan

Everything will B(b)-Fine, at The Clarinet Pages

https://www.flickr.com/photos/148152785@N03/albums  My musical instrument pics, and others!

Offline Silversorcerer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1373
    • View Profile
Re: The "Harry"
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2017, 10:09:01 PM »
http://digitalcommons.butler.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1412&context=grtheses

Here's a masters thesis written in 1953 on instrument manufacturing in Elkhart In.  An interesting read, and shows the link between all the Elkhart makers was Conn.

This is a very interesting read, and has some great jewels within it, particularly to someone like me that sees Conn as a very rare lion of a man, almost a social-capitalist if such a thing exists;- but I found that the author kind of missed the New England makers, many of which were well established in Boston and New York before Conn opened up in Elkhart. He does mention James Warren York, but only as if he materialized in Grand Rapids out of nowhere. J.W. York apprenticed in New England, never was associated with Conn and made some of the finest cornets and brass instruments ever built. The York Band Instrument Company of Grand Rapids was a very large maker in the midwest. And before York there was Moses Slater in New York, and the author entirely skips Harry Bettoney, William Haynes, Verne Q. Powell, T. Berteling, and generally anyone that didn't come out of the Conn factory. It is true that Elkhart concentrated the talent and workers and gained a critical mass that didn't really happen in New England, but New England makers came first and there were bands that were outfitted with instruments made in the USA before Conn went into business. Conn even bought one of those early New England factories when the Isaac Fisk died. Fisk's workshop was reputedly equipped with the best tooling in the USA at the time.

Look into a fellow named Henry Distin. He is arguably at least as responsible as Conn for spurring USA brass instrument making. You have some seeds planted in New England in Boston, Philadelphia, New York, Providence that were growing even before Elkhart. It can be accurately said that any maker that didn't get started under Conn's roof was either in New England or came to the midwest from New England. It should be a bit intuitive with New England being industrialized long before the "Northwest Territory" was settled.
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline Windsong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1116
    • View Profile
Re: The "Harry"
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2017, 04:23:33 PM »
Absolutely right, Sorcerer.
Conn's Elkhart was certainly the main epicenter of drawn talent in America, but not the sole heir to the thone, so to speak.
Expert bubblegum welder, and Pedler Pedler.

Offline Airflyte

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 842
  • CONNoisseur of Vintage Ebonite
    • View Profile
Re: The "Harry"
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2017, 07:02:13 PM »
Not to sidetrack Windsong's thread, If you've never seen these photos and are the least bit interested in Conn's legacy - please, take the time to view these incredible photos. http://www.dannychesnut.com/Music/Conn/conn/

(Clarinets start at photo #31)
"The Clarinet - in a class of its own"

Visit Phil Pedler's Clarinet Pages NEW website!
https://sites.google.com/clarinetpages.net/clarinetpages

Offline Silversorcerer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1373
    • View Profile
Re: The "Harry"
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2017, 07:25:53 PM »
C. G. Conn is one of my personal American heroes, or maybe fighting Irish heroes. Either way, thanks for the photo link.  :)

So Seamus says to Timmy, "Timmy, you heard about the Irishman who went to American and built a fortune?"
Says Timmy, "Why no, Seamus, I didn't;- tell me then, just how much did that poor laddie lose?"  ;D
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline Silversorcerer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1373
    • View Profile
Re: The "Harry"
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2017, 10:12:06 PM »
That was one huge and impressive workshop. This story is quite fascinating to me because even though there was not internet in 1875, it was a smaller world, particularly in brass instrument manufacture. The degrees of separation were mostly single digits. Above I mentioned Henry Distin, a brass instrument innovator that emigrated to New England and worked with and/or trained quite a few of the New England brass makers.

Henry Distin had worked for Besson in both France and England before coming to America. From the article linked above, "About this time Conn met Eugene Victor Baptiste Dupont (b. Paris ?May 1832; d. Washington, D.C. 26 July 1881), a brass instrument maker and designer and a former employee of Henry Distin of London."

I had not known there was a connection, albeit indirect between Distin and Conn. The link was Eugene Dupont, Conn's original partner. In that indirect way, Distin, who also came to America to capitalize on his patents, was also involved in the chain of events leading to Conn's opportunity. Not all men would have risen to that opportunity.

After Conn lost his fortunes, that is whatever remained of them after he enjoyed a long life spending his fortunes, he also wrote a few books that express his rather optimistic approach to living. I've read a little of one of them and it is clear that this fellow was as much a 19th century thinking philosopher as he was an instrument maker and manufacturing tycoon.

But he really didn't know much about woodwinds. He delegated that to Harry Pedler. That is why I refer to the early Conn clarinets as stealth Harrys.  ;)
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline Windsong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1116
    • View Profile
Re: The "Harry"
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2017, 11:32:16 PM »
I am a history nut, as much as I am a collector (and perhaps I'm a collector because I AM a history nut--dunno), and I genuinely appreciate you sharing these things, Airflyte, Sorcerer. 
Really fascinating information.  To be a fly on the wall--even briefly--during some of the magnificent planning conversations these men must have had.  I'd have shared a cup (or three) of coffee with any of these men in an instant.
Expert bubblegum welder, and Pedler Pedler.

Offline Airflyte

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 842
  • CONNoisseur of Vintage Ebonite
    • View Profile
Re: The "Harry"
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2017, 12:37:53 PM »
Alright Windsong, chew on this; http://woodwindshelp.weebly.com/uploads/2/3/7/9/23791000/italy_sax.pdf

I'm in the process of researching Orsi built instruments and found it very interesting - lots of connections were being made in Italy as well!
"The Clarinet - in a class of its own"

Visit Phil Pedler's Clarinet Pages NEW website!
https://sites.google.com/clarinetpages.net/clarinetpages

Offline Silversorcerer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1373
    • View Profile
Re: The "Harry"
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2017, 12:58:36 PM »
Alright Windsong, chew on this; http://woodwindshelp.weebly.com/uploads/2/3/7/9/23791000/italy_sax.pdf

I'm in the process of researching Orsi built instruments and found it very interesting - lots of connections were being made in Italy as well!
Cool beans! The Italian makers are some that I know the least about. I suspect a couple of low $$ deals I picked up are Rampones, but hard to be sure. There's a cool Italian something, something, something (seek and yee shall find) up presently for those that follow these things. Orsi was quite the interesting Professor, indeed.

Windsong, if you are interested there is one of Conn's books available in full for free on Google books. I have seen the other two on Amazon and as soon as I finish Tragedy and Hope (1000 pages by Carroll Quigley) I might dive into some more C.G. Conn. I am a slow put persistent reader. It's the only way to see into the minds of dead men. Thank heaven quite a few of them wrote books.
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline Silversorcerer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1373
    • View Profile
Re: The "Harry"
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2017, 01:35:16 PM »
I do have a great .pdf on Italian clarinets;- that is you can read Italian. I think the same book is translated on scribD(?). I got into it researching a curious mark on a busted Cabart simple system that I picked up for $5 on the auction. It had "A. Gardelli, BAR" on it. I found out that it was Alfredo Gardelli of Bari, Italy reading that translation. It was made by Cabart in France and then sold by A. Gardelli in Bari. The one thing about history is that you will never run out of history to study;- and it is certainly more fascinating than fiction. The Three real Italian clarinets I have are all stencils I bought real cheap. I think two of them may be Rampones, but one was a store brand from New Jersey and the other one exists also in French origin. A third one is really interesting and I have no idea which Italian maker built it. It's kind of sloppily built, but everything works well and it has amazing leather pads that still seal well;- just needs new corks now but I played it with the joints wobbly just yesterday. I've got to get to work on some corks. I am up to speed on pads, but all the ones I've installed pads on still need the corks done. Eventually.....
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline Airflyte

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 842
  • CONNoisseur of Vintage Ebonite
    • View Profile
Re: The "Harry"
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2017, 06:55:06 PM »
I think the Rampone clarinets would be well worth the cost and labor of re-corking. From the link I posted, the 1930 pro level bass sax from Rampone with micro-tuner neck and embossed bell is a work of woodwind art.

Here's Phil's Rampone page http://www.clarinetpages.net/clarinet-history/rampone that contains a link to an Ebonite simple system in the key of C - a very nice looking clarinet.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 07:15:47 PM by Airflyte »
"The Clarinet - in a class of its own"

Visit Phil Pedler's Clarinet Pages NEW website!
https://sites.google.com/clarinetpages.net/clarinetpages