Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 

Author Topic: Clarinet manufacture and invention timeline  (Read 4785 times)

Offline Windsong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1157
    • View Profile
Clarinet manufacture and invention timeline
« on: October 05, 2017, 06:09:54 PM »
Forgive me if I have published this before.  It's an esential reference point, I think, and believe you all will find it beneficial as well.

http://jlpublishing.com/ClarinetHistory.htm
Expert bubblegum welder, and Pedler Pedler.

Offline Airflyte

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 853
  • CONNoisseur of Vintage Ebonite
    • View Profile
Re: Clarinet manufacture and invention timeline
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2017, 07:31:57 PM »
That's a great link! The timeline format is wonderful.

Have you noticed that 1750 was a huge leap for the clarinet in regards to composers?

The Mannheim School may have been the catalyst. Have a look at the Wikipedia page here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannheim_school

The focus of the school was geared toward woodwinds so this does make sense.
"The Clarinet - in a class of its own"

Visit Phil Pedler's Clarinet Pages NEW website!
https://sites.google.com/clarinetpages.net/clarinetpages

Offline Lisa

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
    • View Profile
Re: Clarinet manufacture and invention timeline
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2017, 08:32:38 PM »
Nice resource, thanks!
Lisa  Upper Michigan

Everything will B(b)-Fine, at The Clarinet Pages

https://www.flickr.com/photos/148152785@N03/albums  My musical instrument pics, and others!

Offline Windsong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1157
    • View Profile
Re: Clarinet manufacture and invention timeline
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2017, 06:33:09 AM »
That's a great link! The timeline format is wonderful.

Have you noticed that 1750 was a huge leap for the clarinet in regards to composers?

The Mannheim School may have been the catalyst. Have a look at the Wikipedia page here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannheim_school

The focus of the school was geared toward woodwinds so this does make sense.

Yes, and from 1830-1845 the most significant advances were made in such a short period of time--advances that survive with only minor modification even today.  It's interesting to see how inventions stir inventions.
Expert bubblegum welder, and Pedler Pedler.

Offline Airflyte

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 853
  • CONNoisseur of Vintage Ebonite
    • View Profile
Re: Clarinet manufacture and invention timeline
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2017, 10:17:26 AM »
This may be a good thread to introduce a very good youtube channel:  Boxwood&Brass. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67KQPvkuA7o  (Historical Clarinet Demonstration: Clarinet after Grenser, c. 1810)

The focus is on "period" instruments  - relative to Windsong's original post. I know some may have limited access in terms of bandwidth for watching videos. This maybe worth the effort!

The videos are high quality, professionally recorded and short in duration.
"The Clarinet - in a class of its own"

Visit Phil Pedler's Clarinet Pages NEW website!
https://sites.google.com/clarinetpages.net/clarinetpages

Offline Windsong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1157
    • View Profile
Re: Clarinet manufacture and invention timeline
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2017, 08:06:24 PM »
That's simply fantastic.  Thanks for sharing.

There is that name again, too:  Heinrich Grenser...a name that will haunt me forever, as I will never forgive myself for not bidding on that magnificent, beautiful, perfect 1790s specimen that sold for a paltry $200.00 on EBay a year and change ago.
Expert bubblegum welder, and Pedler Pedler.

Offline andybeals

  • Proud alto clarinetist
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
  • Hi, my name is Andy and I have a Clarinet Problem
    • View Profile
Re: Clarinet manufacture and invention timeline
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2017, 01:06:51 PM »
That's a great link! The timeline format is wonderful.

Have you noticed that 1750 was a huge leap for the clarinet in regards to composers?

The Mannheim School may have been the catalyst. Have a look at the Wikipedia page here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannheim_school

The focus of the school was geared toward woodwinds so this does make sense.

Yes, and from 1830-1845 the most significant advances were made in such a short period of time--advances that survive with only minor modification even today.  It's interesting to see how inventions stir inventions.

The first Industrial Revolution ran from 1760 to 1820 or 1840.

In 1806, a fellow by the name of Claude Laurent invented the post/rod/key system that we all know for his flutes.
  http://thesax.info/makesandmodelslist/2013/12/01/claude-laurent-crystal-flutes/  Prior to this, woodturners would need to turn a bump in the instrument (as you can see above), and then carve out a channel to run the key and its axle through. 

Steel finally became good enough (consistent enough) and able to be manufactured in sufficient quantities in the early part of the nineteenth century, with the first practical locomotive invented in 1811 ("Salamanca" on the Middleton Railway).

Rotary valves appeared on brass instruments in 1814.

It's worth noting that piano wire as we know it was invented in 1834. 

Boehm's 1835 flute took Laurent's invention one step further, placing the long axles all on the same side of the keys so that they opened and closed in the same manner and gave us what we know now as the Boehm system. 

Piston valves as we know them on brass instruments appeared in 1838.

The Clarinet Pages is where we answer the question: "Am I not a Clarinet and a Woodwind?"

Offline Silversorcerer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1373
    • View Profile
Re: Clarinet manufacture and invention timeline
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2017, 02:25:55 PM »

That's a great synopsis page.

 In trying to date my oldest relic, I've approached the mystery from several angles. I'm looking at the motion of the mechanics;-  turned block mounted keys with flat but circular heads, but with the same four principal parts as a modern instrument. Then the shape of the bore, which is consistent with 1800. The mouthpiece is separate with a long tenon and might have been a reed on top type. There is no large protruding bulb on the lower joint for key mounting but rather more sculpted blocks. Most clarinets from 1800 and later found had raised wooden rings instead of partial diameter blocks and most of these also had square key heads. Obviously many of the changes were adopted out of sequence depending on the maker.

Another angle is the pitch standard, which also points to 1800-ish. It's slightly lower than LP.

Then the odd mix of ivory with dark hardwood. It's not the average group of characteristics.
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline andybeals

  • Proud alto clarinetist
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
  • Hi, my name is Andy and I have a Clarinet Problem
    • View Profile
Re: Clarinet manufacture and invention timeline
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2017, 10:14:48 AM »
Could it be one that had been modified later in its life to fit then-current expectations?  When I see a wooden ring with a key fitted to an instrument, that's what I think it is. 
The Clarinet Pages is where we answer the question: "Am I not a Clarinet and a Woodwind?"

Offline Silversorcerer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1373
    • View Profile
Re: Clarinet manufacture and invention timeline
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2017, 04:47:21 PM »
The rings I am talking about are milled on the bodies, as are the blocks. These were original millings I am pretty certain. Nothing looks to have been altered. There is a Firth, Pond & Hall:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/253177935756?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

This is about as close as I have found
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline andybeals

  • Proud alto clarinetist
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
  • Hi, my name is Andy and I have a Clarinet Problem
    • View Profile
Re: Clarinet manufacture and invention timeline
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2017, 03:08:09 PM »
A few more notes:

This video talks about tuning (a little) and tuning standards (a lot) and 432Hz:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKTZ151yLnk

It reminded me that the tuning fork was invented in 1711 by John Shore, with A423.5.

A little on the tuning fork:

http://www.sites.hps.cam.ac.uk/whipple/explore/acoustics/historicalnotes/

http://americanhistory.si.edu/science/tuningfork.htm

(Tone wasn't accurately measured until 1834.)

An article about the measurement of tone:

http://proaudioencyclopedia.com/the-history-of-audio-and-sound-measurement/

A history of pitch:

https://www.piano-tuners.org/history/pitch.html

(Reading through these should keep everyone off of the streets for a bit.)


And should you be interested in temperament:

https://smile.amazon.com/Temperament-Became-Battleground-Western-Civilization/dp/0375703306

It's a short, but toothy read.
The Clarinet Pages is where we answer the question: "Am I not a Clarinet and a Woodwind?"

Offline Silversorcerer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1373
    • View Profile
Re: Clarinet manufacture and invention timeline
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2017, 03:39:32 PM »
One mistake in that first vid;- A440, according to an antique engraved tuning fork that I have, was adopted by the American Federation of Musicians in 1917, and the US gov in 1920. That's a pretty good video otherwise.

The only argument I ever make regarding the pitch standard is that it be left alone and the longer the better. There might be some valid reasons to use older standards for period music, but probably what we should pay more attention to is temperament intended by the composers.

I really don't like equal temperament major thirds, but that's easy to fix on a fretless instrument or a wind instrument.
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline Windsong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1157
    • View Profile
Re: Clarinet manufacture and invention timeline
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2017, 06:54:28 PM »
I just bought my new Cesium Atom Radiator!
I got a great deal, too.  It was 432 bucks, and 440 bucks including tax.
Can't wait to try it out.
 ;)
Expert bubblegum welder, and Pedler Pedler.

Offline Airflyte

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 853
  • CONNoisseur of Vintage Ebonite
    • View Profile
Re: Clarinet manufacture and invention timeline
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2017, 07:41:33 PM »
In regards to Adam Neely's video, I find his snide remark "It's basically just a big new age circle jerk"  really off-putting. Too bad, he seems like a smart guy.  255 "thumbs down" - must be all "new agers".

Why can't a person enjoy music ( even if on a spiritual level) at the pitch of his or her choosing without nasty derogatory labels?  Are we still in grade school? Ever hear of John Coltrane? Was he spiritual? Sure he was.  Did he play at 440 ish? I guess. Would he have adopted 432Hz if Selmer made such a horn?   Who knows?

Go search YouTube for "Mine Craft music" or "C418". Guess what? Lots of people just love that music. I bet it's not at 440Hz.

I like 432Hz, still shoot 35 mm film, drive an old British sports car and have 2 cats in the yard. If that make me a "new ager" than so be it.





"The Clarinet - in a class of its own"

Visit Phil Pedler's Clarinet Pages NEW website!
https://sites.google.com/clarinetpages.net/clarinetpages

Offline andybeals

  • Proud alto clarinetist
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
  • Hi, my name is Andy and I have a Clarinet Problem
    • View Profile
Re: Clarinet manufacture and invention timeline
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2017, 10:53:49 AM »
As my AD (who holds a D.M.A.) says, "Tuning is an agreement."  In Band (or Orchestra), we tune to the same note, we play in the same key (unless it's Ives or something similar), and we play to the beat given by the director/conductor.

Some humor:
https://www.tonedeafcomics.com/products/band-transposition-chart

And a useful tool if anyone says things like "Concert F sharp" to you:
http://mmallory.fcsd.wnyric.org/documents/concertpitchchart.pdf

I maintain some interest in just intonation, but my instruments are all 12TET, and tuned for A440, so I'll stick with that, because I really, really like playing with my friends.  There are few things better that I can do with a group of people.

The Clarinet Pages is where we answer the question: "Am I not a Clarinet and a Woodwind?"