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Author Topic: Extra key - Penzel Muller Artist  (Read 2702 times)

Offline kewald

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Extra key - Penzel Muller Artist
« on: July 05, 2021, 03:12:03 PM »
Removing the upper joint keys from a Penzel Muller Artist and noticed another padded key and ring below the A/D ring key.  The extra key shares a shaft with the C#/G# key.  The A/D ring also has an extra padded key on it's shaft.


What are they called, and what do they do?


Tried uploading photos, but keep getting a fatal error as reported yesterday.


Here's a link to the photo. https://1drv.ms/u/s!At_bqJIbTzvzktALGIhutXYDzfJQFw?e=3Gu2wc


And another to the A/D ring.  Notice the adjusting screw on the shaft also.  https://1drv.ms/u/s!At_bqJIbTzvzktAEKQhlHyQr8ttyWQ?e=2Vb33d





Thanks,
« Last Edit: July 05, 2021, 03:14:42 PM by kewald »
Ken
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Offline DaveLeBlanc

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Re: Extra key - Penzel Muller Artist
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2021, 04:58:35 PM »
Neat keywork! I feel like this is probably a forked Eb correction pad.
David Watson of the original The Clarinet Pages
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Offline kewald

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Re: Extra key - Penzel Muller Artist
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2021, 06:44:57 PM »
Here's a better photo of the upper joint keywork, taken before refurbishment.  I'm nearly through working on it.  Just need to reset some pads.
 
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Offline DaveLeBlanc

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Re: Extra key - Penzel Muller Artist
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2021, 10:14:50 PM »
These are cool, but I don't think they're at all necessary. In the grand scheme of things, just another pad to need to seat and that can get out of adjustment.

Technically it helps keep the Eb/Bb in *slightly* better tune, but the meager gain isn't really all that noticeable. Cool to have, though.
David Watson of the original The Clarinet Pages
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Offline el gitano

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Re: Extra key - Penzel Muller Artist
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2021, 09:18:28 AM »
so it is, for better tuning in the upper register
Claus

Offline DaveLeBlanc

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Re: Extra key - Penzel Muller Artist
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2021, 12:38:10 PM »
so it is, for better tuning in the upper register
Claus

Correct, that's the idea anyways. Whether or not that little correction key does all that much is a matter of debate. The way I see it - if the correction key was so crucial to good intonation, everything would have it. As it is, the vast majority of professional-level clarinets keep it simple with the standard, non-fancy Boehm system.

As we say in America, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"
David Watson of the original The Clarinet Pages
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Offline Dibbs

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Re: Extra key - Penzel Muller Artist
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2021, 09:51:26 AM »
The mechanism is for fork (1+3) Eb/Bb rather than a correction key for the long (1+1) Eb/Bb.  i.e. a fingering that is not available without it.

It may or may not improve the long Eb/Bb in the lower register which is the one that is always horribly sharp.  The upper register long Bb is normally perfectly acceptable tuning wise.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 09:57:18 AM by Dibbs »

Offline DaveLeBlanc

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Re: Extra key - Penzel Muller Artist
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2021, 10:39:43 AM »
The mechanism is for fork (1+3) Eb/Bb rather than a correction key for the long (1+1) Eb/Bb.  i.e. a fingering that is not available without it.

It may or may not improve the long Eb/Bb in the lower register which is the one that is always horribly sharp.  The upper register long Bb is normally perfectly acceptable tuning wise.
Oops, thanks for the correction!!
David Watson of the original The Clarinet Pages
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Offline kewald

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Re: Extra key - Penzel Muller Artist
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2021, 10:34:13 AM »
OK, so what is fork fingering?  I have never seen an explanation of that.
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Offline Dibbs

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Re: Extra key - Penzel Muller Artist
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2021, 07:02:07 AM »
It's when you have an open hole followed by one or more closed holes like on simpler instruments like recorders and early clarinets.  Forked fingerings usually sound weak and often have tuning issues.  Modern instruments' mechanisms are designed to eliminate the need for many of them (e.g Eb/Bb side key) and improve most of those that remain (e.g. fork B/F#).

And before you ask, you could very well argue that the the long Eb/Bb is a forked fingering too.

Offline kewald

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Re: Extra key - Penzel Muller Artist
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2022, 03:31:09 PM »
I've started working on the tuning of this PM Artist. With the barrel that came with it, it played very sharp and alternating between G4 and G5 would not play either in tune.  So, used my adjustable barrel and got those tones to play ok about 3 - 4 mm longer than the original barrel.  Went out to my shop to make a new barrel, only to discover that the original barrel from my 1888 Buffet is the right length.  Bore a mm or so small, but test played the PM Artist with it, and obtained much better tuning.  Then I bored that barrel out to 15.2mm to match the mouthpiece and upper joint. VoilĂ , this horn now plays about as good as it gets.  Only remaining issue is that E3 plays flat.  I suspect that's because the Bell that came with this horn is a mis-match.  It's a Chedeville low-pitch.  The Artist is also marked LP.


Looking at the Bell/lower joint junction from inside, they two bores seem to match although one of them is apparently slightly out of round.


Any suggestions about what to do?


TIA
« Last Edit: January 01, 2022, 03:55:24 PM by kewald »
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Offline DaveLeBlanc

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Re: Extra key - Penzel Muller Artist
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2022, 05:02:11 PM »
If the low E is flat, I suppose you could pull the bell out a little, or even better figure out where the best tone is, and put a small spacer on the tenon so you don't have to guess every time you pull out.
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Offline kewald

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Re: Extra key - Penzel Muller Artist
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2022, 04:12:02 PM »
If the low E is flat, I suppose you could pull the bell out a little, or even better figure out where the best tone is, and put a small spacer on the tenon so you don't have to guess every time you pull out.
I've seen somewhere recently that a hole in the side of the bell will change pitch.  Can't recall where, or whether it raises or lowers pitch.  Any thoughts on that?
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Offline DaveLeBlanc

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Re: Extra key - Penzel Muller Artist
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2022, 05:01:35 PM »
I remember this as well. I believe Phil has done this to a few clarinets, though I too don't recall if this lowers or raises pitch.

I would imagine that it would raise the pitch, as a hole in the bell would allow air to escape out of the bell sooner/faster than regular. Based on my meagre knowledge of clarinet mechanics, I would think that this would sharpen the the lower/higher notes when the crows-feet keys are depressed.
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Offline LarryS

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Re: Extra key - Penzel Muller Artist
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2022, 08:59:42 PM »
If the low E is flat, I suppose you could pull the bell out a little, or even better figure out where the best tone is, and put a small spacer on the tenon so you don't have to guess every time you pull out.
Surely that would make it flatter. The longer the instrument the lower is the note.
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