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Author Topic: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line  (Read 34609 times)

Offline abellows

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2016, 06:28:48 PM »
Super Brilliante sn# SM8941B

Offline abellows

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2016, 06:30:42 PM »
more pics. Missing top ring on lower section. Think I might steal the one off my empire state.

Offline daniel_bingamon

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #47 on: December 23, 2016, 12:24:38 PM »
My Clarinet is an American Gloritone, it says "Made in USA".  No maker name identified, Serial number on back of bell has no letters, just 3855.  Appears to be hand stamped, not engraved.




« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 12:35:16 PM by daniel_bingamon »

Offline Photoboy52

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #48 on: January 31, 2017, 07:06:51 PM »
Hello,
I just found this wonderful page last night doing some research on a Penzel Mueller Soloist I picked up yesterday at one of my favorite thrift stores down here in South East Texas. I saw it sitting in the display case and once I looked it over and did a very quick and dirty look on eBay I had to bite for $25. The serial number is: 6465B, it does not have what I think to be the original mouth piece it is labeled: Golden Goldentone 3 and appears to be plastic.  For the instrument the only issue I can see besides obvious wear to the keys is the lowest key on the upper 1/2 right side (the one the palm actuates) is broken off but the piece is there, and the top most pad on the right hand side is not all there. The rest of the instrument though looks to be in very nice shape, I'm 1/2 way tempted to get my mouthpiece off of my Martin Freres and give it a whirl with the pad plugged of course. Aside from adding the serial information did I make a good purchase and is it worth getting repaired and re-padded? I mostlikely want to keep it for a while and possibly teach my oldest daughter to play. But I can always be tempted with a good offer, everyone here seems to be very decent so I'm not worried mentioning offers lol.



Thanks for y'alls time,
Willie

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2017, 08:24:09 PM »
That Soloist is definitely worth some fix it up effort. It is one of the rarer late models. Thanks for sharing it and bringing photos. I will update the list soon with that and a couple of others I have seen lately.

All of the PM models are good clarinets, many of them great clarinets. This is one from the 50s toward the end of the run, but also when the build quality was quite good and most modern. A minor key graft for the broken key is not a big issue;- I've done a few key repairs with silver solder and it can often yield a near perfect and durable repair. Re-padding one of these is a good bit less expensive than finding an equivalent new clarinet.

I have not so far done much research on the metal PM clarinets. I have seen mostly just Gloritone models and only one Artist model, which was a military model. I should include these metal models because I am lately thinking that these are not stencils made for PM but are truly PM clarinets.
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline DJSMART

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2017, 06:26:47 PM »
Hello everyone,

just found this page after 30yrs of owning a Penzel-Mueller clarinet...!

What a trove of information you've got here!

I'm an ex student of Newark Technical College (England), where they run a course in clarinet making and woodwind instrument repair.
(Class of 1990)

One of my lecturers back then (Peter Hudson) collected PM clarinets and let me have a beat-up 'Artist' model (in exchange for a baritone sax mouthpiece).

Serial number is M1068B and is found on both joints. (Top joint, just below the C/B trill key posts, vertically, and Bottom joint; just below the R/H pinky keys, also vertically.
The number 1068 is (hand) stamped into the back of the E/B lever for the L/H pinky.
Both joints and bell sport the eagle logo (head facing to viewer's left, talons clutching three arrows) and underneath the eagle:

PENZEL-MUELLER
LONG ISLAND CITY N.Y.

The bell is also stamped
GEN. GRENADILLA PAT. APPLIED FOR
underneath the stabilising ring at the back of the instrument.

The stabilising rings (bell and top of bottom joint) differ slightly, with the latter resembling more a Selmer profile.
I'm not sure which is the original.

The instrument is a standard 6-ring Boehm system in Bb.
Tuning is excellent at A=440Hz.
The three ringed holes of the R/H show evidence of undercutting by machine and hand.
(The instrument has been hand-tuned).


The instrument required extensive repairs, including pinning of the (partially-crushed) top joint. The barrel is missing, but a modified Selmer series 9 has done the job admirably.

Images to follow tomorrow (after the sun has risen...).

There was no mouthpiece with the instrument and the case is not the original.

Played with a 'GREAT NECK ORIGINAL' mouthpiece, the instrument has a full, rich tone and flexibility that one would expect from a professional standard instrument.






Offline Airflyte

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #51 on: May 22, 2017, 06:54:26 PM »
Hello everyone,

just found this page after 30yrs of owning a Penzel-Mueller clarinet...!

Welcome DJ !  That old Artist model is very worthy of a restoration. Go for it.
"The Clarinet - in a class of its own"

Visit Phil Pedler's Clarinet Pages NEW website!
https://sites.google.com/clarinetpages.net/clarinetpages

Offline DJSMART

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #52 on: May 22, 2017, 07:48:44 PM »
Hello everyone,

just found this page after 30yrs of owning a Penzel-Mueller clarinet...!

Welcome DJ !  That old Artist model is very worthy of a restoration. Go for it.

Thank you for the welcome...

(I did restore it all those years ago and the cork pads have lasted so long...but I suppose it could do with another one).

Offline Windsong

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #53 on: May 22, 2017, 07:56:27 PM »
Welcome, DJ Smart,

"I'm an ex student of Newark Technical College (England), where they run a course in clarinet making and woodwind instrument repair"

What an incredible opportunity that must have been.  That's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, no doubt.


Expert bubblegum welder, and Pedler Pedler.

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #54 on: May 22, 2017, 10:36:51 PM »
# M-1068-B is the lowest "M" Artist number reported here to date. Thank-you so much.  :) Periodically I update the list and this will soon be added. I usually wait until I have about a half dozen new serials.

The more serial numbers we add, the clearer the method of serialization appears. I am quite certain now that after the letter prefixes (designating models) were adopted, each model numerical sequence was set to zero and started over. This is the reason that there are Empire models with very high serial numbers;- far higher than any other model. These are not necessarily later due to the higher numbers of Empires that were produced. As the intermediate model, the Empire model was most popular. It simply outran all other models in production numbers.

Artist "M" models (most expensive at the time) were next most popular and the M series also included the later Brilliante model, which took the "M" designation from the Artist model leaving the Artist with a new "L" series. That means that lower L numbers were built after higher M numbers. All the "L" models are later, but how these parallel other model production is still difficult to nail down give or take a good number of years.

Bel Canto clarinets are among the rarest. This was the entry PM model. It's sort of like an entry level Gibson guitar;- they didn't make many so all the serials are low numbers. Spread those out over a few decades of production of the Bel Canto. Incidentally, even though it is the low end of PM clarinets, the Bel Canto is a very very nicely made Penzel Mueller and is not to be avoided.

- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline Rhythm

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #55 on: July 19, 2017, 09:01:59 PM »
To add to the list of extant PM's, I have a Brilliante, US marked with matching SN's - M6548-B.  I have had a number of Brilliante and Artist models, but this one is the one I play more often.


Offline noneyet

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #56 on: July 30, 2017, 04:22:51 PM »
Here's one more for the timeline.

I just acquired a P-M Empire (NOT Empire State) clarinet, serial # H2240-B horizontally on both upper and lower joint.

I think, from reading the timeline that it would be pre-1937....or am I reading it incorrectly?  ???

Also, the bell is wood but lacks a metal ring around the mouth of the bell. Does anyone know if they were produced that way? It certainly doesn't appear to be damaged so I'm a little confused  :-\
Hoarding clarinets since 2016 it's Stu Weaver only on The Clarinet Pages. :)

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2017, 05:55:55 PM »

Congratulations, and this is welcome news. I hope you can get us a few photos because so far there are few Empires with wooden bells on the list. Most appear to be early ones.

That one is definitely early but nailing it down is problematic. The reason is that while we do have a 1937 warranty record, we don't have any photos of the serials on that clarinet and that leaves some questions. Also, the number on that 1937 warranty is very high compared to yours for instance. It should be a little closer to the end of production if it is in the second serial series. If there were around 15,000 Empires, number 12372 should be closer to the end of that serialization (1956) than to the beginning (193?) I know we don't have this exactly right yet, particularly considering the conundrum introduced by Empire State number H12835, which has an H, but by other characteristics appears to be part of the first serialization. We still need more to fill in the blanks. It's like a jigsaw puzzle with about half the pieces missing and probably more than one out of place.

While that keeps me a little skeptical about the 1937 warranty date stake, I think it is safe to say that you have a 1930s clarinet by the best guess we can make so far. I wish I could be more confident, but I am reluctant. The Empire was the model that was the highest production model and the most popular. That is why it has serials that go far beyond the other models. If we look at the numbers we have so far, it appears that there were over 15,000 Empire models built, and we have to spread those out over about 25 years, give or take (?). The problem is that we don't know exactly when it starts, so the closer to the starting point, the less accurate we can estimate the date. Yours is definitely earlier in the period after the serialization by model was adopted. 193? That's the current problem. If there is anything in the case with writing on it, maybe an old reed envelope, that could help. Also the style of the case it came in might be significant if it is original.

I've seen more Empires with Bakelite bells than with wood, but as you can see on the list, I have a very low number one with a wooden bell that is original. It has a metal bell ring. I have seen wooden bells that have lost the ring on several different brands of clarinets and I am not sure how that happens. One would think that the wood must shrink catastrophically. If it was built without a ring, then it is the first PM that I know of like that. Photos of it would help, if you can post a few.
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline noneyet

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2017, 06:40:25 PM »
Here are some pics:

http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah310/noneyet/20170730_205850_zpsdxje1hqp.jpg
http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah310/noneyet/20170730_212008_zpss23ceczr.jpg
http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah310/noneyet/20170730_211645_zpsrcptzy1l.jpg
http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah310/noneyet/20170730_210404_zpsexmjcrfy.jpg
http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah310/noneyet/20170730_210345_zpssa3liidu.jpg

As you can tell, the case is made to fit into a Martin alto sax case which houses a 1930s? Elkhart Band Instrument Co. sax...and underneath the clarinet case is a fitting to carry a flute as well! Sadly, no documentation came with the case...although there was a nice reed trimmer with blades for alto sax and clarinet :)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 06:55:53 PM by noneyet »
Hoarding clarinets since 2016 it's Stu Weaver only on The Clarinet Pages. :)

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2017, 07:42:54 PM »
My apologies, but I can't tell much. I clicked on the link and got to the image below.

If it is in a sax doubler case, that probably isn't original, but I like those cases. Still the fact that it is with a 1930s saxophone is significant. It seems like the box and the gear in it all come from the same era. Tell me what I am doing wrong with photobucket. I clicked the link and can't see the images. We've had many photos disappear this way in the past few weeks due to some kind of glitch, we probably is not our forum software, but appears to be something new at photobucket. If there is a way to directly upload them here using the attachment options, that makes sure that the photos remain here.
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum