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Author Topic: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line  (Read 38353 times)

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #90 on: August 09, 2017, 11:19:22 AM »
I don't have near enough experience or expertise to ever take this project over. I'm a good sleuth with great focus but that's it. Happy to be a net-surfing grunt :) 

"Experience" is the result of making mistakes and learning from them, and perseverance in spite of them. One must start somewhere. Expertise? Credentials? Oh, please.... :-X
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline noneyet

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #91 on: August 11, 2017, 06:57:08 AM »
So what do you make of this???

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Penzel-Mueller-jean-aubert-Wood-Clarinet-/263138022601?hash=item3d443f94c9

And here's another one : serial M5898-B

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Penzel-Mueller-Brilliante-Clarinet-Excellent-Condition-Classic-Buffet-Case-/222606764754?hash=item33d465aad2:g:dCkAAOSw1BlZXW3P

And another : serial # H14630-B...with a case that sports a sticker from 1953...leading me to believe (obviously) that the date of manufacture would be prior to that. Good enough for a sort-of date stake?

https://www.globalgaragesale.net/itemlisting.aspx?item=159809

Last one for today : Another Bel Canto. The seller claims serial # 5486B, but none of the pics show it, so....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-PENZEL-MEULER-BEL-CANTO-CLARINET-ARTIST-MODEL-MP-NICE-/322644924709?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 07:48:50 AM by noneyet »
Hoarding clarinets since 2016 it's Stu Weaver only on The Clarinet Pages. :)

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #92 on: August 11, 2017, 08:24:23 AM »
Strange on that first link. It looks like a J3380B. Where are the other J serials? If there were 3000+, seems like we'd have seen another one by now. The A/G# arrangement is very atypical and the trill guide is very heavy, also atypical. The marks with the circle and overlaid PM I have seen on other PM clarinets that were more typical. My Bel Canto has a mark like that. You don't see that mark too often but it is on some other Penzel Mueller clarinets.

It's fairly obvious where they got the "J" serial letter, less obvious where this might have been made, and far less obvious how many of these there actually are. So far, I've seen this one. Good find, although I did see the listing, just hadn't looked at the photos until now.

There are three possible candidates I could easily find for Jean Aubert, all prominent French people. One is an architect that died in the 18th C. Another is an engineer, died in 1984, and the last one is a popular French singer song writer that played a guitar, born in 1955. With Penzel Mueller production ending about 1956, we might want to rule out the songwriter.

The engineer guy is far more interesting to contemplate: "Jean Aubert was a French engineer. In 1961 he used the idea of the German engineer Julius Greve from the last century to describe a pente d'eau, (English: water slope) which was a way of moving boats up the gradient of a canal without locks." - Wikipedia

Frenchman, "borrows" a German idea that by force causes water to flow up-hill? That's elegant.  ;D

I'm thinking it's the architect / artiste fellow. That fits the typical French stencil brand tradition. It also looks like it could be a jab by Penzel-Mueller (NOT Frenchmen) at the practice of ambiguous French names appearing on clarinets. Where are the country of origin marks on that one? That would be my question if I could only ask one. The seller says US and of course it is marked New York, but so are most of the ones that also are marked France. The case is marked PM, but that case looks like a French case from about 1950. That type of handle on a rectangular box is typical of Malernes and other French clarinets.

You asked what I thought?

The Brilliante is completely typical of Brilliantes made for the US military, marked on the bell "US", and fits into the "M" series PM clarinets and extends backward that part of the serial sequence assumed to be parallel to the Korean conflict. That puts us closer to marking the 1950 beginning of that era of production. While the military might have ordered the clarinets in advance of 1950 or ordered more after 1953 has to be considered, but the date range of those Brilliantes marked US is definitely in the era of the Korean conflict. Somewhere between M5497B and M5898B is the date 1950, and finding 5898 narrows the window by about 300 Brilliante models. Of course it tells us nothing about Empires, Bel Cantos, or the other models because these weren't preferred by the military.


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Offline noneyet

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #93 on: August 11, 2017, 12:15:19 PM »
I follow your reasoning and have no quarrel with any of it. I guess we'll have to see a boatload more Jean Auberts to know more. Add another letter prefix to the timeline...lol :)

SO what about serial # H14630-B with it's stickered case? You didn't tell me your thoughts on that one....
Hoarding clarinets since 2016 it's Stu Weaver only on The Clarinet Pages. :)

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #94 on: August 11, 2017, 02:33:21 PM »
There is a photo of the Bel Canto serial;- no prefix.

The Empire is a high serial, so 1953 is plausible, so how long did they play before going to Allstate? It's worth adding to narrow the information toward the end of production. I don't remember too much about Allstate. 3 yrs ?  Good endorsement of the instrument. It won't prevent you from making allstate.
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Offline noneyet

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #95 on: August 11, 2017, 07:48:29 PM »
Huh. Don't know how I missed the pic with the serial number. Time for new glasses, maybe...
Hoarding clarinets since 2016 it's Stu Weaver only on The Clarinet Pages. :)

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #96 on: August 11, 2017, 09:26:10 PM »
Maybe we could contact the store that sold the Empire and see if they have a dated record of the sale? What do you say? "Hey, when did you sell a Penzel Mueller Empire serial H14603B to Kathleen at 15 Elmwood Avenue? Check your sales and warranty records from 1948 to 1953."

https://mcclellanmusic.wordpress.com/about/
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 09:32:34 PM by Silversorcerer »
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #97 on: August 11, 2017, 09:40:31 PM »
I e-mailed McClellan's just now. Here's what I said:

"A group of vintage clarinet fans at ClarinetPages forum is trying to establish a Penzel Mueller clarinet serial number time line. Recently a PM Empire model serial # H14630B appeared online for sale in a case with your medallion on it with a 1953 allstate band sticker on the case and the name Kathleen, and her address, 15 Elmwood Avenue. We wondered if you might have a dated record of the sale and perhaps know if it was a used or new instrument that was purchased. Any information is helpful. Thank-you."
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline noneyet

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #98 on: August 11, 2017, 10:27:22 PM »
Wouldn't it be great if they actually responded positively to the email?
Hoarding clarinets since 2016 it's Stu Weaver only on The Clarinet Pages. :)

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #99 on: August 16, 2017, 06:41:58 AM »
I decided to go ahead and include a separate section with Penzel Mueller metal clarinets and serials of these, even though I still have so few numbers. The recent appearance of a full Boehm double walled model, the Clari-met, which is extremely rare, is worth a feature post. These are a few of the seller's photos:
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Offline noneyet

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #100 on: August 16, 2017, 09:07:23 PM »
Hoarding clarinets since 2016 it's Stu Weaver only on The Clarinet Pages. :)

Offline DaveLeBlanc

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #101 on: September 07, 2017, 12:12:17 AM »
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-ANTIQUE-CLARINET-FLUTE-MUSICAL-INSTRUMENT-PARTS-OR-REPAIR-/162662387963?hash=item25df6f10fb:g:KGEAAOSwFdJZsEiU

Here is one you folks might be interested in. It's got some extra keywork which is nice. and the starting bid is pretty darn low.
David Watson of the original The Clarinet Pages
Irvine, California, United States

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #102 on: September 07, 2017, 06:39:28 PM »
That's classy. I could see that one restored. It looks like all the bones are good. I'm pretty sure it is high pitch but it's also pre-serial number era, when the company was mostly doing its' own thing.
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Offline Jimmyjamms

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #103 on: September 10, 2017, 12:51:40 AM »
I have acquired a clarinet and while researching I came across this website.  I am trying to find out info on the clarinet as well as give you the info to add to your timeline.

The Clarinet Info:

Serial#:  7688. (possibly)
LP
B

This is what I was able to make out.

I am a guitar player, so I do not know much about this.

Your help and feedback would be much appreciated.

Offline noneyet

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #104 on: September 10, 2017, 07:53:38 AM »
It would be a great help if you included pics of the instrument, especially of any logos, stamping, and serial number. Looking forward to getting as look at her and welcome to the original Clarinet Pages!
Hoarding clarinets since 2016 it's Stu Weaver only on The Clarinet Pages. :)