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Author Topic: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line  (Read 41666 times)

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2016, 05:59:38 PM »
Some interesting information from a poster on Sax on the web ( http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?29773-Pruefer-Woodwind-Company-When-in-Operation ) who relates this timeline for the Penzel Mueller / Pruefer partnership:

History:
Pruefer started clarinet company in 1906.
In 1914 he merged with Penzel and Mueller to form Penzel Mueller and Pruefer
In 1920 Pezel had died, Mueller gained control of the company and Pruefer retired
In 1920 Gus Pruefer had traveled to Markneukirchen, Germany and helped Moennig to modernize factory
1921 Restarted Pruefer clarinet company in US (young Hans Moennig joins Pruefer in RI)
1976 Factory in RI burned

I don't know what the source of the information is ultimately, but the dates fit quite well with those we already know.

Additionally, a good number of the earliest serialized Penzel Mueller clarinets have original bakelite bells. Often we tend to think a bell of a different material means a substituted bell, but it might more often be an original bell;- particularly with Penzel Mueller clarinets.

Bakelite had become broadly adopted for many uses by 1920. We can place a rough marker of circa 1920+ for the earliest Penzel Mueller clarinets with original bakelite bells. Given what we have found so far, circa 1920, following the death of G. Penzel, serialization began and bakelite bells became the most common ones. Whether these changes occurred nearly simultaneously or in close sequence remains to be determined. One thing that is certain, Pruefer clarinet serial 2410 is very nearly identical in manufacture to a Penzel Mueller Pruefer that has no serial as well as Penzel Mueller #7727, which has a bakelite bell. Thus knowing a little about the history of G. Pruefer sheds light on the "circa 1920" Penzel Mueller history.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2016, 06:04:33 PM by Silversorcerer »
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline KimM613

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2016, 03:45:44 PM »
Not sure if this helps at all on your timeline, but I have my dad's Penzel-Mueller Super Brilliante. It hasn't been played in probably 50 years, but it looks nice to me (someone who has no clue about clarinets!). Anyway, the serial number is SM9001B, and that is stamped on both the upper and lower joints. (Thanks to Google, I learned what some of these parts are called!) The mouthpiece is made by The Woodwind Co. in New York, and is a Steel Ebonite G7. Everything else is stamped either Penzel-Mueller or PM. I might see about having this refurbished and taking some lessons!
Anyway, I hope this helps in your serial number project!

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2016, 05:32:00 PM »
Thank you for the information, KimM613. The Super Brilliante model is very rare. That's an excellent mouthpiece too, but I generally use PM mouthpieces or a Vandoren 2RV with my Empire model. If that mouthpiece works for you, keep it. If not, experiment.

It certainly helps to have your information.  :) The Brilliante model generally has the "M" designation so "SM" is logical for the Super Briliante. Not all of the quirks of the serials are logical.

It would also help if you knew about when your father acquired the Super. Matching a serial to a "bought new" date is what puts the serials into context for us and we only have a few date certain serials. I'd love to see some photos when you get the time to do them and I will add your clarinet to the database very soon.
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline KimM613

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2016, 06:58:57 PM »
Well, my dad passed away in '94, and unfortunately I never asked exactly when he got the clarinet. He was born in 1941 and I remember him saying that he took lessons when he was younger. I believe that this was the only clarinet he ever owned. I can try asking his older sister if she has any recollection of when he got it.

I'll be happy to take some photos for you in the coming days. Is it best to upload them here in a comment, or is another way preferable?




Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2016, 09:18:39 PM »
KimM613, so far this is the highest serial number in the M serials;- the highest quality models. The Super "M" is creme de la creme.

That's a SUPER beginner instrument, but it's plausible that he obtained it in school or later as a young adult?

Either way this is useful because between about 12 years old and 22 years old, covers 1953 -> the end of the company. This is very significant to know. Various sources have production ending from 1956 to about 1960. Knowing just your father's birthday narrows down the years it could have been produced and helps estimate the production dates of M serial numbers between that time and the last serial / date match.

It also verifies that model "M" had a separate serial life from model "H" which probably exceeded it in production because it was the mid-priced model. Right now the best way to estimate production dates on the H, M, L, and R clarinets is to look backward from the highest serial numbers of those models produced at the time production ended. With the Brilliante M models we have another date certain at 1947, and we know the Brilliantes are post war. We also have a good number of stories that come with a few of these to see a very good general picture of at least the M model's production history.
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline KimM613

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2016, 07:21:49 AM »
Took some pictures and will see if I can upload them here in a few posts. If there is another way you'd like to see the photos, please let me know.

I'll keep you posted on any info I can dig up about when/where my dad bought the clarinet!

Offline KimM613

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2016, 07:23:12 AM »
some more...

Offline KimM613

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2016, 07:24:36 AM »
and the last few... I hope this wasn't hogging up too much space!

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2016, 08:28:10 AM »
Too many photos? No, no, please continue. Those are excellent. I like the way this forum uploader works. It allows for easy sharing and very good screen resolution.

It's rewarding to finally see a very late one like this that has the complete kit;- the accessories with it also place those in time. We might see those specific case materials again. Most likely the mouthpiece was purchased with the clarinet so that is useful to date it also. It's a gorgeous clarinet in pristine condition and it brings with a great deal of information. I certainly appreciate you sharing it here, K.  :)
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline jayrrich

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2016, 11:46:24 AM »
For your timeline

Penzel Mueller Eagle Design B LP S/N 10893

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2016, 08:33:49 AM »
For your timeline

Penzel Mueller Eagle Design B LP S/N 10893


Thank-you.  :)

I have a few others to add as well. I will update the serial list and include this one.
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline abellows

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2016, 05:59:15 PM »
Picked up an Artist Model serial # 17444. Just came out of its oil bath, and a polish job on the keys. One key from the upper joint and one on the lower joint have the last 3 of the serial number stamped on the underside. Serial number is stamped vertically on both sections. Ill attach some pics for reference.

Offline abellows

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2016, 06:00:50 PM »
more pics

Offline DaveLeBlanc

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2016, 07:52:40 PM »
really nice eagle on the logo.  Thanks for sharing!
David Watson of the original The Clarinet Pages
Irvine, California, United States

Offline abellows

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #44 on: November 02, 2016, 09:35:11 PM »
Here it is padded up.