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Author Topic: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line  (Read 42838 times)

Offline noneyet

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #60 on: July 30, 2017, 07:59:06 PM »
I used photobucket because I was afraid I would exceed the size limits (which I did...lol). I've resized them and we'll try direct uploading (fingers crossed)
Hoarding clarinets since 2016 it's Stu Weaver only on The Clarinet Pages. :)

Offline noneyet

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #61 on: July 30, 2017, 08:01:38 PM »
And here's the other two pics  :
Hoarding clarinets since 2016 it's Stu Weaver only on The Clarinet Pages. :)

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #62 on: July 31, 2017, 07:03:51 AM »
It looks great to me. There were two key styles (at least) for the Empires but I am not sure if there is any specific time period connected to either one yet.

I do think that the bell had a ring at one time. I can't see that part of the photo clearly but my impression is that there is a groove inscribed around the edge of the bell. One built without a bell ring would be unusual. I don't know how the bells lose the rings. I think maybe the wood might swell enough to open the metal where it is joined and once that happens, getting it secured again would be difficult. I have seen a good handful of nice clarinets that do not have bell rings and also do not have any damage to the wood.

The bell ring is not very important and many very recently built clarinets have no bell ring. I would keep the original bell with the clarinet. It's more important to have the original parts, I think, than to have the ring. The ring being gone would not effect the sound. Socket rings are more important because they do have a mechanical function by reinforcing the socket so make sure those are tight and if they are lose, shim them with paper or cloth between the wood and the socket ring.

Is it in playing condition presently? I've played a few of these and an Empire is my preferred performance instrument presently. They usually play very easily and the way the keys are laid out fits my hands very well. It's a very pleasing instrument to handle and play.
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Offline noneyet

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #63 on: July 31, 2017, 07:26:19 AM »
There's an air leak in the lower joint that keeps it from being fully functional at the moment but I'll be taking care of that when I find a good woodwind tech or when I figure it out myself. I took a bassoon to a Music & Arts and when I got it back the stringed tenon came back corked so I don't think she's going there  >:(

So after looking at the pics do you have any further idea where she fits in the timeline?

Also, here's a closer look at the bell. Hope it helps  :)
Hoarding clarinets since 2016 it's Stu Weaver only on The Clarinet Pages. :)

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #64 on: July 31, 2017, 09:34:35 AM »
We know very well where she fits in the serialization sequence (I inserted it just now), but not knowing the date that serialization started, as I said before, limits greatly any foundation for something better than a guess at the decade. Of the more than 15,000 Empire clarinets built, our records have around a dozen to represent these.

It's still a pretty thin slice at this point and I am not going to state with any more confidence than the current record supports when the date of manufacture might be in that part of the production. We have a very good idea what the dates were very early after WW1, perhaps projecting those into the early 1930s at least. After that, it gets pretty fuzzy until we begin to see some serials with military marks indicating WW2 and the Korean conflict. The problem is, those serials don't belong to any Empire models. So we have 15,000+ Empires to distribute over a period of 25 to 30 years about. We don't have much information that could tell us how many were made in any one of those given years, so even guessing at the distribution would be pre-mature.

I wish I could do better and in time as we add more numbers and other information, such as that this was was with another instruments of a particular period, we will be able to come closer matching dates. If this had been one of the highest serials, I could say that's probably 1955 or '56. I could certainly narrow it to a 5 year period.

I have the same problem with H-127-B, which is one of mine. It has a different key shape than yours, but has the same markings and also has a wooden bell. It's the earliest Empire on the list with the serials running along the key work, but when is "early"? I don't like to guess when I don't have the information to back it up.

Looking at the bell, I'd leave that alone. It looks very nice. Here again, with 15,000 plus instruments, we need at least 150 Empires just to have 1%. We have about a dozen. What we have can sketch things out at best very vaguely. Even so, it is a far better picture of the production periods than we had before this got started, and again, your contribution added another piece needed in completing the puzzle. You might check this thread periodically. I update the list with 3 to 4 new serials almost monthly. In a year it might look a little more complete. I am confident that over time, we will have enough numbers with date stake examples to set the dates with more accuracy.

Were you able to find a serial list for the Elkhart saxophone? My guess is that these were probably made around the same time.
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Offline noneyet

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #65 on: July 31, 2017, 12:05:11 PM »
The only info on the Elkhart sax is between 1930-1938 because it's marked as Elkhart Band Instrument Co and no other manufacturer engraving, so it fits in the time period with the Empire. I have a couple of other clarinets I can't find info about that I will start a thread for in the next day or so. I don't have any recognition (yet) of the styles of different manufacturers so I hope that you (or others on the list) may be able to help identify them  ;)
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Offline noneyet

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Hoarding clarinets since 2016 it's Stu Weaver only on The Clarinet Pages. :)

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #67 on: August 02, 2017, 08:15:15 PM »
G. Penzel was their student line post WW2. It's still a Penzel-Mueller. Some of the G. Penzel marked ones were imported, but not all of them. The serialization is generally similar, running along the keys. Thank you for the additions.
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Offline noneyet

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #68 on: August 02, 2017, 09:27:24 PM »
I suddenly have Penzel Muellers jumping out at me from the interwebs!!!...or maybe I'm just noticing them more now  ???

These all have pics and list at least a portion of the serial number which I cross-checked against the list so I hope this is helping and not causing unnecessary work with no payoff. At this rate you'll have every one ever made on the list within a week or two  :o

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/antique-clarinet-penzel-muller-172566901

https://reverb.com/item/4665687-penzel-mueller-artist-1940c-black?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_sv0vIu61QIVFyWBCh3ZNQqqEAQYASABEgLDb_D_BwE&pla=1

http://doctorsaxwoodwinds.com/shop/archives/penzel-mueller-studio-recording-clarinet/

https://picclick.com/Vintage-Rare-Penzel-Mueller-Clarinet-France-7967b-192158142450.html

https://reverb.com/item/5351238-penzel-mueller-soloist-clarinet-1940-s-era-rosewood?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_sv0vIu61QIVFyWBCh3ZNQqqEAQYAyABEgI0CfD_BwE&pla=1

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/clarinet-penzel-mueller-brilliante-198156926

http://doctorsax.biz/pm_c_clar.htm

https://picclick.com/Vintage-Penzel-Mueller-Pacemaker-Clarinet-5221B-172652077581.html

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/penzel-mueller-empire-clarinet-245925006

https://reverb.com/item/1655639-vintage-penzel-mueller-artist-model-wood-bb-clarinet-in-it-s-original-case-ready-to-pl-ay

http://www.clarinetpages.net/vintage-odd-brands/penzel-mueller/penzel-mueller-empire    (this page has 2 with serial #s I didn't see on the list)

http://stanshorns.blogspot.com/2014/08/a-handsome-penzel-mueller-clarinet.html

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-penzel-mueller-york-clarinet-1844526314

https://reverb.com/item/573326-vintage-penzel-mueller-grenadilla-wood-bb-clarinet-in-it-s-original-case-and-nice-as-is

http://www.doctorsax.biz/PenzelMueller_FullBoehm_Clarinet.htm  (the serial # may be "958" but there is no clear pic of the full number)

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/penzel-mueller-empire-vintage-bb-424207051

This one doesn't have serial #s but I thought you could glean some info from it :
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/pre-1899-set-bb-clarinet-albert-290321256

So, were these helpful? If so I'll go surfing hard again next time I have some time to kill.  :)


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Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #69 on: August 03, 2017, 04:32:19 PM »
Whole serial numbers are much better for these purposes. Can you narrow it down to the ones that have complete serial numbers?  ;D

I know there are quite a few unique and interesting instruments from before WW1 that have no serial numbers. Those are interesting for sure and in some cases those get a thread of their own.

Un-serialized instruments will not help much with dating the ones with serial numbers, which was the primary purpose of this thread.

We can date the unserialized ones to the years prior to 1914-ish going back to about 1898. The way the imprint was made over those years changed some, so during those years they can be roughly divided into groups and dated based on the way the imprint is made. In the beginning it was just G. Penzel and Bro. I think. Then when Mueller first partnered, the spelling was Müller. For a while they were also located in the Bowery instead of Long Island City, so there are some good ways to estimate the dates of the earliest instruments to within about 5 years. At the beginning of WW1 they partnered with Pruefer and that appears to be when the serialization began. At the end of the war, both companies continued the same sequential serialization separately. So those earliest instruments with no serials are actually not so much of a problem to guesstimate the date.

I also haven't accumulated enough metal Penzel-Mueller examples to include a section on these yet. I think I have seen fewer than a half dozen and most serials were not reported. I might have two or three serials on record for these and it's anyone's guess right now where they might fit.

The real problem with partial serials is that ii introduces fuzzy edges and encourages duplicate inclusions or several omissions.

If, for instance, two numbers at the end are missing, then we can't distinguish that clarinet from 98 others. What if we get two numbers that match and we don't know what the last two digits are on either of them? For the purposes here, 2 clarinets became the same one if that happens. If there are 3 digits missing then we can't distinguish it from 998 others. And if it comes up for sale twice with different pictures and the same missing serial digits, we might end up recording it twice.

It is preferable for the list to be made up of fewer serial examples that are complete than to begin to introduce partial serials just to get the number of instruments higher. That way when we find a meaningful document that nails a serial to a more exact date, we know right where that line occurs, like the 1927 sales receipt.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 04:35:09 PM by Silversorcerer »
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Offline noneyet

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #70 on: August 03, 2017, 08:27:42 PM »
Whole serial numbers are much better for these purposes. Can you narrow it down to the ones that have complete serial numbers?  ;D

Most of them were complete and I thought I left metal ones out of it completely. There were only one or two where the lister had x's at the send of the number...I HATE it when they do that  >:(

So....did any make the list? Or did I just waste a ton of your time?  ???




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Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #71 on: August 04, 2017, 09:11:40 AM »
You have not wasted my time, primarily because I haven't spent it yet, and now I know it will be worth spending.  :) 

Any interest, any assistance, any new information is greatly appreciated.

Right now I have a very slow internet connection, something a little worse than my first dial up account. That is primarily because I do not have (even in the heart of downtown Atlanta) a utility pole adjacent to my workshop and with the demise of the CLEAR wireless network, I am connecting via a data cable and an Audiovox 8900 that Verizon barely continues to support. It was the fastest phone-as-modem available when it was introduced, but Verizon has downgraded its' capabilities and would rather sell me a stupid "smart-phone" than support the device that I already own. I simply refuse to upgrade to something "new" when something old is still functioning perfectly.

I am in many ways off-the-grid. Loading numerous high resolution photos has to be a very selective practice at this moment, and mostly I do that from a wifi coffee shop a few times a week using an iPad, which is too late in production to be compatible with my now ancient 2009 iMac (Steve Jobs, RIP!). So digital data arriving and leaving my hard drive is like watching oil paint dry. Many times the slow connection is broken before a moderate size file can even transfer.

If any one is wasting my time, it is Verizon Wireless, and I have no problem pointing the finger straight at them. They do not service devices that they have already sold. They divide the digital wireless bandwidth into various categories and sell it a la carte at an egregiously high mark up. Therefore what they get from me is the bare minimum for the bare minimum. I had to re-connect twice to post this response.

That being the case, I maintain a master file of serials on my iMac and I update the list here about once a month. If it doesn't happen immediately, rest assured that the links you have provided will be looked at and the serials added all in good time. There are a good number of others I have added to my list here that are not in this thread yet, including two Super Brilliante models, a few more Empires, and of course the Professional you indicated, which I have seen, and a few others.

My hard drive contains well over 600 photographs of Penzel Mueller clarinets with well documented serials of the clarinets that are in those photos. I do have a back-up (Time Machine) drive as well in case the main drive fails. 

Again, your contributions are greatly appreciated, but it might take a little while to digest and publish these.  :)
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Offline Airflyte

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #72 on: August 04, 2017, 09:24:10 AM »
Sorcerer, your eloquent reply reminds me of a song I like from Jared Bartman. If you don't care for the music you may appreciate the lyrics!  The song is titled ' I Refute Technology'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guyHgKXh0kI

   
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Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #73 on: August 04, 2017, 10:00:00 AM »
Sorcerer, your eloquent reply reminds me of a song I like from Jared Bartman. If you don't care for the music you may appreciate the lyrics!  The song is titled ' I Refute Technology'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guyHgKXh0kI

 

I'll be sure to enjoy that later today with my ear-buds on the patio of Aurora Coffee shop in Little Five Points.  ;)
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #74 on: August 04, 2017, 04:42:22 PM »
Penzel Mueller serials
Muller sp. #775 Eb LP Albert 2-ring USQMC

PM Artist 13888

Studio Recording Serial Number is SR3535B France

????? Model 7967B France

Soloist Serial 6990B

BRILLIANTE MODEL-M4533B-VINTAGE

9031-C hand serialized Boehm 17/6

Pacemaker Clarinet 5221B

PENZEL MUELLER "EMPIRE " CLARINET - EARLY SERIAL NUMBER OF H-977-B

Supr Brilliante SM 8846B

Empire SERIAL NO. H-977-B

.... will be added soon. I skipped those without full serials.
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum