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Author Topic: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line  (Read 42795 times)

Offline noneyet

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #75 on: August 04, 2017, 07:57:20 PM »
Woo-hoo! I helped add 11 to the timeline!!! I matter!!!!     ;D

(Always looking for validation. I am, after all, a musician...lol)
Hoarding clarinets since 2016 it's Stu Weaver only on The Clarinet Pages. :)

Offline bbrandha

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #76 on: August 05, 2017, 12:22:24 PM »
Just got my P-M in the key of A back. Serial # 8937. I do not know any history on it.

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #77 on: August 05, 2017, 03:44:33 PM »
Just got my P-M in the key of A back. Serial # 8937. I do not know any history on it.

To start with, it's older than dirt.....

No, truly, that one is pretty easy to place. See page 2 of this thread for the serial list. It falls close to the 1927 sales receipt.
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Offline noneyet

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Hoarding clarinets since 2016 it's Stu Weaver only on The Clarinet Pages. :)

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #79 on: August 06, 2017, 04:28:14 PM »
That's a really nice Bel Canto and ready to play. It extends the known numbers of those produced by a couple hundred. That is the rarest of the top models. Sweet!  :)
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline noneyet

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #80 on: August 06, 2017, 06:20:16 PM »
What can I say? I'm on a mission. A monster has been created (or just transmuted to a narrower focus...lol)  :o
Hoarding clarinets since 2016 it's Stu Weaver only on The Clarinet Pages. :)

Offline noneyet

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Hoarding clarinets since 2016 it's Stu Weaver only on The Clarinet Pages. :)

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #82 on: August 06, 2017, 09:18:56 PM »
Flat rings marked "Sterling". Monster findings, I'll agree with that.  :)
Please, keep it up! I'm enthused by your enthusiasm.

I wonder if those are original rings. I have seen a few Brilliantes with silver plated metal throughout, but not anything with solid silver. It looks like the keys are nickel-silver or perhaps they just have almost no oxidation. Typically older silver will have a brownish tint, sometimes with darker spots.

I'm wondering which country that one sold to. Sometimes American musical instruments bring higher prices on the international market, like perhaps Americans aren't quite aware of the quality of the USA built instruments. One has to wonder, but I have always felt that USA built clarinets are under rated in the USA.
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Offline noneyet

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #83 on: August 09, 2017, 06:57:46 AM »
Here's one more for you. There are a ton of pictures, including one of the serial : L3388 (I can't see a B on the end no matter how much I enlarge the pic). What do you think?

https://reverb.com/item/4665687-penzel-mueller-artist-1940c-black

Addendum : The seller emailed me back "It is tough to read, but it's L3388. There is no B at the end, but there is one stamped above the PM emblem on the other piece."  Curious, eh?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 07:41:34 AM by noneyet »
Hoarding clarinets since 2016 it's Stu Weaver only on The Clarinet Pages. :)

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #84 on: August 09, 2017, 07:43:18 AM »
The photos are still loading.....  Watching oil paint dry. Could be loaded by supper time.....

I'm going to take a guess that the "L3888" is actually L388B, and perhaps misread? Even with a small sample, it seems too high for an L Artist number. There was a PM on ebay that the reported serial seemed way high for the model and when I looked at the photo of the serial the last 8 reported was indeed a B. It could happen twice if it happened once. This would put it post WW2. One thing we know for sure is that the Brilliante model was introduced post WW2, and it took the M designation away from the earlier Artist model. There are some claims, logically supported that the "new" model was actually the "L" Artist, and the Brilliante was actually the same as the "M" Artist model. Meet the new number 2? Oh, wow, I finally got the serial photo loaded...

OK, all that above is wrong. And this is why we have to see photos of the actual serials and the locations of them. That is not L3888. It is 13888. It's one of the Artist models with the original numerical serial sequence and can't be later than the mid 1930s before the serial format changed and the location changed. Nice addition, but without that clear photo of the serial and basing it on the seller's reported serial, it would be a mistake in the list. So it will go on the list;- oops! It's already on the list.  ::)

Thanks anyway, but that's the kind of stuff we have to watch out for when adding these. The wear and tear on the serials sometimes causes mistakes reading them and the sellers that pay attention to this thread, and some do, kind of pay half-attention to it. An L is always an Artist, but an Artist is not always an L.

Have you checked out that bass Artist that is listed now? There again a serial is reported, but the number shown in the photos seems completely unrelated to the reported number. I'd love to put that bass on the list, but I have no idea where to put it.

And I am near certain that the hand serialized C Boehm is out of place. There's a lot wrong with the way that one looks and is built. The name marks on the bell and body are the same style as the 1950s models. The way the serial is located is as if it is the second sequence not the first, and then there is the shared lever post for the LH5 keys. Typically we think of a shared post in that location belonging to a clarinet from the 1920s or before, but Penzel Mueller Boehm clarinets had separate posts as early as 1915. 9031-C has to be some kind of strange prototype or custom one-off. And the marks on it would make it a 1950s clarinet, not one from the 1920s. I think they just picked a number and hand did that one to have a record of it. The way it is made and serialized is truly unique.
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Offline noneyet

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #85 on: August 09, 2017, 07:59:58 AM »
Whoops. Sorry about that  :o

Where is the Bass Artist that you mentioned?
Hoarding clarinets since 2016 it's Stu Weaver only on The Clarinet Pages. :)

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #86 on: August 09, 2017, 08:04:46 AM »
Addendum : The seller emailed me back "It is tough to read, but it's L3388. There is no B at the end, but there is one stamped above the PM emblem on the other piece."  Curious, eh?

The B is not curious at all really, now that we know it is 13888. The B is what key the clarinet plays in, Bb. Thats how the early marks are. To understand the serialization and how it changed and how the marks change and the locations of them, one really has to study the list carefully and look at what is there, and of course links to photos would help, but this needs to be selectively done because linking to over 600 photos would be prodigious and it really only takes a few to explain the progression of changes in the serial practice.

Take a look at the notes on Penzel Mueller # H13163B Empire State ("B" above model name, original serial locations, B serial suffix, early key type, early thumb rest, block letter style embossing, bell and barrel missing)
Then look at this one: Penzel Mueller Empire # H13864B (serial in first locations on the backs of the joints, script Empire logo, composite bell, lifter type levers, not pin-in-hole). What do you make of that? Those two numbers appear to be in sequence with only a few hundred instruments in between. It narrows down the point where the H Empire State became the Empire. Some people claim it's not the same model. Really? An H is an H, in my alphabet, but call it what you like.

Anyway, you can see how useful a small sample is. Often times all you need is a couple of numbers to land and then you get a fine line at one of the transition points. Then luck will give you some nail to hang the date upon.
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Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #87 on: August 09, 2017, 10:16:31 AM »
Whoops. Sorry about that  :o

Where is the Bass Artist that you mentioned?

No apology necessary. When I checked my files, I only have this serial. Apparently the previous photos were only good enough to confirm the serial and I didn't save any of those. This newer listing on Reverb has superb photos despite the error on the serial and it gives me several good views of a 7-ring articulated from this period, and eventually the changes in those kind of features will allow us to "spot" date examples even if the serials have been erased or worn away. This in NOT the same 7-ring mechanism that was used by PM during or just after the partnership with Pruefer.

We can separate the wheat from the chaff here. Don't stop harvesting.  :)

Do enough research and you can take this project over and I'll get on with figuring out the Bettoney serials. I went for PM first because not only was my best player at the time an Empire of undetermined date, but this was a company with relatively low production numbers and probably they made no stenciled instruments at all. These will always be relatively more rare than other USA makers that engaged in almost mass production. And then there is also Pruefer to decipher, which looks far more straight forward. We need all the good intelligence agents we can get here.  8)

H. Bettoney might have made more woodwinds than Selmer USA up to the time they disappeared and the stencils are numerous and serialized like the ones carrying the Bettoney name. That said, the system for serialization at Bettoney is daunting.

Harry Pedlers are more rare than Penzel Mueller clarinets but most have NO serials. Thanks, Harry! Pedler Woodwind serials is another puzzle. And then there are the Bertelings;- I might have seen about 5 of these that weren't already in collections.

The Penzel Mueller bass? No reason not to disclose where it is, it's been "discovered" and ends on a Sunday.  :-\

While the reported serial is quite plausible, I am trying to be very careful. You might note that I did include a few serials with some blanks in them, but these were only very rare model types and far less likely to introduce confusion than a mistake on a more common 17/6 Boehm Bb. I thought it better to record the rare model partial serial than leave it out, so I have made some rare exceptions to the rule, but only concerning a rare model.

I'm saving some of the photos of the bass, and if we find another bass with a similar serial reported that looks like this one, I might decide to insert it with the reported serial at that time.

Concerning the chances on that currently listed bass, don't bring a knife to a gun fight as they say...  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Penzel-Mueller-Wood-Bass-Clarinet-Serial-L10043-W-Mouthpiece-Case-/162617628350?hash=item25dcc416be:g:XhwAAOSwQQdZhOHl

I'm not in that auction.  The winner will probably be a sniper using a bazooka.   :o
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum

Offline noneyet

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #88 on: August 09, 2017, 10:57:23 AM »

Do enough research and you can take this project over and I'll get on with figuring out the Bettoney serials.

Harry Pedlers are more rare than Penzel Mueller clarinets but most have NO serials. Thanks, Harry! Pedler Woodwind serials is another puzzle.

I don't have near enough experience or expertise to ever take this project over. I'm a good sleuth with great focus but that's it. Happy to be a net-surfing grunt :) 

Ruh-roh. You're working on Bettoney and Pedler, too? I currently have one Pedler in hand  (serial E33152) and another Pedler and a Bettoney on the way. Guess I'll be taking pictures of mine and sending them to you soon. Do you have a post dedicated to them on here as well?
Hoarding clarinets since 2016 it's Stu Weaver only on The Clarinet Pages. :)

Offline Silversorcerer

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Re: Penzel Mueller Serial Time line
« Reply #89 on: August 09, 2017, 11:11:07 AM »
Please report the Pedler information to Windsong here. See the thread already underway. Given the high number of views of this PM serial thread, obviously undocumented serial threads are useful to someone out there in cyberspace. Instead of sending me photo files of the Bettoneys, please initiate a thread here and begin saving the photos to a backed up hard drive.

Like I indicated earlier, we can sort it out and revise it once we have it in the basket. If you look at the page 1 list in this thread, you will see how all that happened and yielded a far more refined result. You don't have to spend a great deal of time. Build it and they will come, we'll sort it out as it arrives.

While we are at it, I think I should try to clear up or muddy up the situation with that hand serialized C Boehm. There was a previous early one and it illustrates the differences in the markings. It also has a shared LH5 lever post, and it is not a 7 ring articulated type. Note that this other one is a partial serial, but such a rare type, I think confusion is unlikely. A hand inscribed serial and a partial serial of two rare C Boehm models? Some photos of the two:
- Silversorcerer (David Powell) exclusively for Phil's original “The Clarinet Pages" forum